BaL 8.07.23 - Stravinsky: Petrushka

[Bryn]

Nagano's 1997 Watford recording with the LSO appears to have dropped out of the catalogue. He used the 1947 revision (though that detail is not mentioned anywhere on the artwork or booklet text that I have). It's a very fine performance and recording, though the Miraculous Mandarin which accompanies it on the CD is somewhat less successful, I feel.

[richardfinegold]

I thought the main point of the later revision was to keep the copyright. Musical considerations seem to be an afterthought.
So are we now going to judge all musical works by how they or their creators views conform to the political sensibilities of generations that came to being over a century later?

[Bryn]

I thought the main point of the later revision was to keep the copyright. Musical considerations seem to be an afterthought.
So are we now going to judge all musical works by how they or their creators views conform to the political sensibilities of generations that came to being over a century later?

Not so much "keep the copyright" but to assert it in those countries (including, IIRC. the USA) which did not recognise Russian (Soviet) copyright. Stravinsky, having trained as a lawyer, had quite a few legal battles over performing rights, some of which he won and some he lost.

[Petrushka]

Does anybody agree with his final choice of Chailly? I must confess to still being quite fond of Dutoit’s LSO recording, a BaL winner from several iterations ago - not the most PC individual himself of course.

The Chailly recording is absolutely fine, good sound, good performance and it's coupled with an equally fine Pulcinella so there's little to complain about.

[Pulcinella]

The Chailly recording is absolutely fine, good sound, good performance and it's coupled with an equally fine Pulcinella so there's little to complain about.

I have it in two different incarnations, both now expensive.
A 2CD Double Decca set:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Ballets-Sacre-Printemps-Petrouchka/dp/B00008MLU2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2KRVNYEE7TTFF&keywords=Stravinsky+chailly&qid=1688820498&s=music&sprefix=stravinsky+chailly%2Cpopular%2C61&sr=1-3

and a Decca box set claiming to be the Complete ballets and symphonies:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Ballets-Symphonies-Decca-Collectors/dp/B005BLYSJC/ref=sr_1_16?crid=2KRVNYEE7TTFF&keywords=Stravinsky+chailly&qid=1688820498&s=music&sprefix=stravinsky+chailly%2Cpopular%2C61&sr=1-16

In addition to the single-CD (Presto) version coupled with Pulcinella

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8050516--stravinsky-pulcinella-petrushka

it presumably features in the Riccardo Chailly Stravinsky Edition:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Riccardo-Chailly/dp/B08QLNSBZ7/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2KRVNYEE7TTFF&keywords=Stravinsky+chailly&qid=1688820498&s=music&sprefix=stravinsky+chailly%2Cpopular%2C61&sr=1-1

At least (by good luck rather than deliberate choice, I suspect) we ended up with a recommendation for each of the versions, if you count the Roth (which the BBC site doesn't give, so maybe I misunderstood!).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Many thanks to Petrushka (the forumist) for introducing this thread so willingly and efficiently.

[Pulcinella]

Many thanks to Petrushka (the forumist) for introducing this thread so willingly and efficiently.

[Bryn]

The Chailly recording is absolutely fine, good sound, good performance and it's coupled with an equally fine Pulcinella so there's little to complain about.

Except, possibly, that, unlike the Roth, it is only available in 16-bit quantization, even as a download. There again, the Roth is restricted to the CD sample rate of 44.1 kHz, though with 24-bit quantization.

[ardcarp]

Something very weird going on with this Petrushka BaL. Stravinsky's own recording has been excluded, because "we're familiar with it".

Whist I was happy to go along with the' winner' (Chailly) it was indeed strange not to have a Stravinsky-directed disc. Also strange that Pierre Monteux, surely the most signioficant figure in having conducted works by Stravinsky, Debussy inter alia from their earliest days, was not given much credit. If in addition to 'the winner', Cross had made historic recommendations, then surely those two should have been on the list. The so-called 'period instrument' version seemed to lack tonal sparkle (from the extract we heard). I would have liked to hear more comparisons of identical bits. As Petrushka is relatively short, surely with a little less conversation and more music, this would have been possible?

[Master Jacques]

So are we now going to judge all musical works by how they or their creators views conform to the political sensibilities of generations that came to being over a century later?

It seems so. Considering how long it took to free Western Culture from official censorship, it hasn't taken long for this equally insidious brand of self-censorship to replace it. We need to be very clear about where the high-minded Jonathan Cross and his academic brethren wish to lead us. Directing us to undergo moral agony over the presence of a black puppet in a Stravinsky ballet, and expecting us to condemn the composer for his 'orientalism', is at least one step too far.

[Bryn]

It seems so. Considering how long it took to free Western Culture from official censorship, it hasn't taken long for this equally insidious brand of self-censorship to replace it. We need to be very clear about where the high-minded Jonathan Cross and his academic brethren wish to lead us. Directing us to undergo moral agony over the presence of a black puppet in a Stravinsky ballet, and expecting us to condemn the composer for his 'orientalism', is at least one step too far.

Agreed. It's on a par with Goldsmith Press pulling out of republishing Scratch Music (ed Cornelius Cardew) due to such content as the phrase "Chalky the white-faced golliwog", and misinterpreting one of several of Lou Gare's nose caricatures as anti-Semitic (another such caricature was of a nose in the form of a water tap - they did not find that one objectionable). Cancel culture is undermining the higher education ethos.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It seems so. Considering how long it took to free Western Culture from official censorship, it hasn't taken long for this equally insidious brand of self-censorship to replace it. We need to be very clear about where the high-minded Jonathan Cross and his academic brethren wish to lead us. Directing us to undergo moral agony over the presence of a black puppet in a Stravinsky ballet, and expecting us to condemn the composer for his 'orientalism', is at least one step too far.

It’s also completely missing the wider and more important point which is that classical ballet (ie non contemporary dance ) seems to have a tiny bit of a problem casting black dancers. Perhaps this will change as more go through the fifteen to twenty year training system.

[Bryn]

It’s also completely missing the wider and more important point which is that classical ballet (ie non contemporary dance ) seems to have a tiny bit of a problem casting black dancers. Perhaps this will change as more go through the fifteen to twenty year training system.

Hmm. Maybe the ballet world should open up its parameters even more and learn to integrate art dance traditions of non-caucasian cultures. This does not need to be a case of cultural appropriation, but openly learning from them. That said, the Backamoor character as the villain does come with a considerable baggage of racism about it, a bit like Enyd Blyton's treatment of the golliwog in the Noddy books.

[Pulcinella]

I lost concentration part way through, but think that both the Boulez recordings were mentioned: why not both of the Bernsteins, then?

Chailly lined up for later today and possibly Salonen too, which got a few honourable mentions. Then Bernstein NYPO.
Streamed the Roth yesterday but it's not staying in the playlist: hard to say why it didn't appeal, but I need something a bit 'rougher' and less polished and polite.

[Master Jacques]

Hmm. Maybe the ballet world should open up its parameters even more and learn to integrate art dance traditions of non-caucasian cultures. This does not need to be a case of cultural appropriation, but openly learning from them. That said, the Backamoor character as the villain does come with a considerable baggage of racism about it, a bit like Enyd Blyton's treatment of the golliwog in the Noddy books.

How might 19th/20th c. Russian classical ballet (of which Petrushka is a part) "open up its parameters" to anything beyond itself, any more than Stravinsky's score might "open up its parameters" by the addition of a Yoruba drumming riff part way through, or perhaps a break of Cuban salsa? For better or worse, classical Russo-French ballet is as fixed as a Bach cantata, or a Wagner music drama.

As for "cultural baggage", it might be just as unhelpful to talk about "cultural baggage" with respect to Petrushka's blackamoor, as it would be to condemn the traditional Spanish festival of 'Moros y Cristianos', medieval mummers' plays or their modern recreation in Birtwistle and Nyman's Down by the Greenwood Side. These are all artefacts of a culture war which has been going on for a millennium, and which won't be stopping anytime soon. And it is as well to be reminded of that, rather than pretend to brush it under the carpet.

"Cultural appropriation" is another contradictory notion, surely? Without appropriation, there is no culture: 'nothing comes from nothing', as somebody once said.

Coming back to these Petrushka recordings, I find myself agreeing with Pulcinella about the Roth recording, all present and correct (and minutely controlled) but nowhere near enough to the music's edge to merit much consideration.