BaL 8.07.23 - Stravinsky: Petrushka

[Maclintick]

I also have the Sony black box with the 1911 date. Thanks to contributors above for correction to 1947.

A 2014 Discovering Music edition with Stephen Johnston illustrates some differences between the two versions. Eg at around 10.33 mins he compares the Ballerina's fanfare on trumpet (1947) and cornet (1911)

Thanks for this, Gurnie -- in your debt as often recently ! Somehow I missed SJ's "Discovering Music" on first appearance & was persuaded by his well-argued assertion that the composer became committed in later life to abstraction & eschewed emotion - hence the removal of "dolente" etc from the 1947 revision. I hope Jonathan Cross will compare & contrast 1911 &:1947 in his survey. FWIW, I prefer the sound of the cornet in the ballerina's fanfare..must now order a 1911 version...

[Barbirollians]

Thanks for this, Gurnie -- in your debt as often recently ! Somehow I missed SJ's "Discovering Music" on first appearance & was persuaded by his well-argued assertion that the composer became committed in later life to abstraction & eschewed emotion - hence the removal of "dolente" etc from the 1947 revision. I hope Jonathan Cross will compare & contrast 1911 &:1947 in his survey. FWIW, I prefer the sound of the cornet in the ballerina's fanfare..must now order a 1911 version...

The Monteux 1911 version 1911 conductor very hard to beat.

[Master Jacques]

Something very weird going on with this Petrushka BaL. Stravinsky's own recording has been excluded, because "we're familiar with it".

'Stravinsky expert' Jonathan Cross is into metronomes, and asks whether Monteux's 1959 speed reflects the tempo of the first performance. As this was a ballet (which is what the piece is, remember) it would have been much slower even than that, I fancy. And can't he hear that the slurring Boston cellos are making a performance choice, characterising country fair musicians, not just playing badly?

Perhaps we need a ballet and *recording* expert, not a 'Stravinsky expert' concerned with metronomes and orchestral sound timbres, to illuminate the piece better?

Now, predictably, JC (who wants Madama Butterfly banned, incidentally) is breast-beating over the "racial stereotype" and "orientalism" (?) of the "Blackamoor" character. I've heard enough...

[Pulcinella]

Something very weird going on with this Petrushka BaL. Stravinsky's own recording has been excluded, because "we're familiar with it".

'Stravinsky expert' Jonathan Cross is into metronomes, and asks whether Monteux's 1959 speed reflects the tempo of the first performance. As this was a ballet (which is what the piece is, remember) it would have been much slower even than that, I fancy. And can't he hear that the slurring Boston cellos are making a performance choice, characterising country fair musicians, not just playing badly?

Perhaps we need a ballet and *recording* expert, not a 'Stravinsky expert' concerned with metronomes and orchestral sound timbres, to illuminate the piece better?

Now, predictably, JC (who wants Madama Butterfly banned, incidentally) is breast-beating over the "racial stereotype" and "orientalism" (?) of the "Blackamoor" character. I've heard enough...

I too am disappointed.
In addition to the points you've made, we're getting merely cursory comments about the 1911 and 1947 versions. I'd expected more from an expert.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Verging on obnoxious?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Something very weird going on with this Petrushka BaL. Stravinsky's own recording has been excluded, because "we're familiar with it".

'Stravinsky expert' Jonathan Cross is into metronomes, and asks whether Monteux's 1959 speed reflects the tempo of the first performance. As this was a ballet (which is what the piece is, remember) it would have been much slower even than that, I fancy. And can't he hear that the slurring Boston cellos are making a performance choice, characterising country fair musicians, not just playing badly?

Perhaps we need a ballet and *recording* expert, not a 'Stravinsky expert' concerned with metronomes and orchestral sound timbres, to illuminate the piece better?

Now, predictably, JC (who wants Madama Butterfly banned, incidentally) is breast-beating over the "racial stereotype" and "orientalism" (?) of the "Blackamoor" character. I've heard enough...

Yes that’s when I gave up. It’s a record review not a social essay. Has any one ever seen Petrushka ? Whenever I’ve seen the Rite or The Firebird I always think great music , shame about the dance (lack thereof).

[Alain Maréchal]

Has any one ever seen Petrushka ?

At least 17 times, in my case, it is imprinted on my visual memory, and I had planned further visits this year (while I am still able) until it became clear that the Belarus National Ballet might not be a sensible choice.

I recently listened to the Petrenko/Liverpool recording for the first time, and thought the speeds a little brisk, until the final tableau, when they became ridiculously fast. An old friend of mine danced the role for some years, ("an ankle killer, like Bluebird" ) also the Moor, before graduating to Showman and Ballet Master. He declared the Liverpool Tableau 4 undanceable - the coachmen and the wetnurses would not cope.

The Blackface question has been around for a few years. https://www.dancemagazine.com/blackface-in-ballet/

[Master Jacques]

Yes that’s when I gave up. It’s a record review not a social essay. Has any one ever seen Petrushka ? Whenever I’ve seen the Rite or The Firebird I always think great music , shame about the dance (lack thereof).

I've seen Petrushka three or four times on strange. It is my favourite of the three as a stage work, a whirl of life, colour, humour and pathos. Every bar counts, in the theatre. The 'tragic puppet' is perhaps Stravinsky's greatest creation, at least as a dramatic character.

Anyone who thinks Ozawa's perfectly correct reading is somehow superior to Monteux's, with all its power, colour and huge sense of theatre, simply because the French conductor isn't a slave to metronomic precision, has got their ears on the wrong way (to my way of thinking, and feeling). Just as anyone who thinks the Bernstein version is "Hollywood Dance" needs, perhaps, to turn down the condescension dial.

[Master Jacques]

The Blackface question has been around for a few years. https://www.dancemagazine.com/blackface-in-ballet/

Quite so. It's a social question, though, not a musical one. To say (as Mr Cross did) that Stravinsky is writing "stereotypes" into the music, is projecting modern social mores onto a 19th century Russian puppet show. It's virtue signalling of the most exasperating kind.

[Alain Maréchal]

I agree entirely with Master Jacques in both posts. He said it far more eloquently than I could.

[Master Jacques]

I agree entirely with Master Jacques in both posts. He said it far more eloquently than I could.

Not at all, Alain. I found your post about seeing (and performing) the ballet really illuminating, unlike my rants!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Quite so. It's a social question, though, not a musical one. To say (as Mr Cross did) that Stravinsky is writing "stereotypes" into the music, is projecting modern social mores onto a 19th century Russian puppet show. It's virtue signalling of the stupidest kind.

Impressed that others have seen the work so many times . I’ve only seen it once on TV. On the social question I’m still trying to meet anyone who has read ‘Love and Theft’ generally thought one of the definitive academic works on ante-bellum minstrelsy and blackface . A tiny bit turgid but very thought provoking.

[Master Jacques]

Impressed that others have seen the work so many times . I’ve only seen it once on TV. On the social question I’m still trying to meet anyone who has read ‘Love and Theft’ generally thought one of the definitive academic works on ante-bellum minstrelsy and blackface . A tiny bit turgid but very thought provoking.

[As you'll have seen, I changed "stupidest" in my post to "most exasperating", to remove any ad hominem element. I'm sure Mr Cross thinks long and hard before coming out with his conscientious objections to dead, white male composers and dramatists who disturb him.]

Minstrelsy and blackface have come my way, in research of 19th and early 20th century popular music theatre cultures. The ironic thing is, that "minstrelsy" at least is making a big comeback, with black-only banjo bands very much on the rise, lapped up by predominantly white audiences. The difference is, that they are self-run, rather than promoted and managed by white, male entrepreneurs. Which seems to make them OK.

[Wolfram]

Does anybody agree with his final choice of Chailly? I must confess to still being quite fond of Dutoit’s LSO recording, a BaL winner from several iterations ago - not the most PC individual himself of course.

[Bryn]

I already have a couple (or so) recordings with Roth at the helm (the studio recording and that broadcast on Afternoon on 3) but I will have a listen to the Chailly via QOBUZ.