BaL 13.05.23 - Sibelius: Symphony no 6

[Barbirollians]

Walter performed the Mahler 3 with the VPO at the Salzburg Festival on August 19 1936 but he never recorded it. He didn't record the 6th, 7th or 8th nor can I find mention of any performance.

Klemperer also seems to have avoided the 3rd and 5th and 6th though I think he said he would have recorded the 8th but he was never asked ?

[Barbirollians]

Another thing was that the record companies didn't want overlapping recordings so, for instance, EMI wouldn't have done a complete RVW cycle from Barbirolli when they already had one from Boult. Elgar was more 'popular' so they could get away with that.

In his biography of Karajan, Richard Osborne says that plans had been made for Karajan to record the Sibelius 3 in 1990 but the Grim Reaper intervened.

A terrible shame that we did not have a VW complete Barbirolli cycle . The live 4th on Barbiolli Society and the live Orfeo Bavarian RSO Sixth are terrific.

When was Boult's EMI cycle recorded ? RVW reportedly regretted having promised his Ninth to Sargent rather than Barbirolli .

[Barbirollians]

With hindsight also EMI would no doubt have regretted not having a full Barbirolli Mahler cycle considering the success of 5, 6 & 9 .

Also the madness of allowing Klemperer to cut Bruckner 8 - when Suvi Raj Grubb objected Klemperer said get another conductor - in light of Barbirolli's stupendous BBC Legends Bruckner 8 - they should have been on the phone to Salford .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Another thing was that the record companies didn't want overlapping recordings so, for instance, EMI wouldn't have done a complete RVW cycle from Barbirolli when they already had one from Boult. Elgar was more 'popular' so they could get away with that.

That’s unlikely to have been the reason in this instance. Boult’s RVW cycle for EMI began as late as 1968, by which time Barbirolli had already recorded 2, 5 & 7 with them.

[smittims]

I think a stereo remake of Boult's VW symphonies was always intended when he was invited to return to EMI in 1965. His recording of the sixth was made in February and March 1967 and issued in September. I've never thought Barbirolli intended to record all the VW symphonies; when he returned to EMI in 1962 Elgar was a priority for him, despte his having done quite a numer of Elgar stereo recordings on Pye; I suspect he guessed Boult was returning and wanted to get his Elgar in first - he was, I hear, quite competitive.

[Barbirollians]

I think a stereo remake of Boult's VW symphonies was always intended when he was invited to return to EMI in 1965. His recording of the sixth was made in February and March 1967 and issued in September. I've never thought Barbirolli intended to record all the VW symphonies; when he returned to EMI in 1962 Elgar was a priority for him, despte his having done quite a numer of Elgar stereo recordings on Pye; I suspect he guessed Boult was returning and wanted to get his Elgar in first - he was, I hear, quite competitive.

Possibly but Barbirolli did record 2,5 and 7 with EMI on his return . He may have (wisely) avoided the Sea Symphony but he was an outstanding conductor of the Fourth and Sixth . I suppose the other thing is he knew he was not at all well and it seems in the last three years of his life he recorded a lot of works he was keen to do .

[smittims]

Quite so, 'Appalachia' for one, which was one of his last recordings. And as I expect you recall, he gave a most profound peformance of the VW sixth at his 70th birthday concert.

His 'Antartica' however, dates form 1953.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Possibly but Barbirolli did record 2,5 and 7 with EMI on his return . He may have (wisely) avoided the Sea Symphony but he was an outstanding conductor of the Fourth and Sixth . I suppose the other thing is he knew he was not at all well and it seems in the last three years of his life he recorded a lot of works he was keen to do .

The 7th “Sinfonia Antartica” dated from JB’s earlier time with EMI. It was the first recording of the work, with the performers who had recently given the work’s premiere. My father attended the first performance.

[Barbirollians]

Quite so, 'Appalachia' for one, which was one of his last recordings. And as I expect you recall, he gave a most profound peformance of the VW sixth at his 70th birthday concert.

His 'Antartica' however, dates form 1953.

So it does sorry .

I was a toddler in 1969 so I don't recall that Sixth ! Though I agree on the evidence of the Barbirolli Society CD as well as the Orfeo recording

[Master Jacques]

[...]And as I expect you recall, he gave a most profound performance of the VW sixth at his 70th birthday concert.

I was there, in my teens, on a free spare ticket. I'd never heard VW 6 before, and have never since heard a performance to match that one. Nor had I heard Elgar's Introduction and Allegro before (something like the same applies) so that was quite an evening for me. It doesn't get any better than that first half.

The Beethoven 7 after the interval was not in the same league, as far as this young listener was concerned, either as a performance, or as a piece!

[smittims]

Yes, I agree. I felt at the time that Beethoven 7 wasn't well-placed in that programme. I thought at the time that JB was wrong-footed by the portrait presentation immediately before. He seemed a bit on edge.

[Maclintick]

Walter performed the Mahler 3 with the VPO at the Salzburg Festival on August 19 1936 but he never recorded it. He didn't record the 6th, 7th or 8th nor can I find mention of any performance.

Bearing in mind Pastoralguy's observation that in the early LP era it was almost considered "bad form" for companies to duplicate the most popular pieces of a particular composer's output at the expense of more deserving repertoire -- e.g. Dvorak's "New World" vs. the 7th -- it's quite possible that Walter withheld from recording GM 3 & 6 since pioneering versions by F Charles Adler were available.

[HighlandDougie]

Bearing in mind Pastoralguy's observation that in the early LP era it was almost considered "bad form" for companies to duplicate the most popular pieces of a particular composer's output at the expense of more deserving repertoire -- e.g. Dvorak's "New World" vs. the 7th -- it's quite possible that Walter withheld from recording GM 3 & 6 since pioneering versions by F Charles Adler were available.

Definitely not the 6th. BW simply didn’t conduct it as, to paraphrase the reason for his unwillingness to do so, it was too pessimistic, too dark. As Petrushka has pointed out above, the 3rd featured in performances by BW in Vienna with the VPO in April 1935. He also conducted it with the Royal Concertgebouw in 1934 and 1937. Apart from the RCO where Mengelberg included it in programmes regularly between 1913 and 1931, performances of the 3rd seem to have been few and far between. The NYPO, for example, performed it only four times between 1922 (Mengelberg) and 1962 (Bernstein) with the intervening ones being with Dimitri Mitropoulos in 1956.

[Petrushka]

Definitely not the 6th. BW simply didn’t conduct it as, to paraphrase the reason for his unwillingness to do so, it was too pessimistic, too dark. As Petrushka has pointed out above, the 3rd featured in performances by BW in Vienna with the VPO in April 1935. He also conducted it with the Royal Concertgebouw in 1934 and 1937. Apart from the RCO where Mengelberg included it in programmes regularly between 1913 and 1931, performances of the 3rd seem to have been few and far between. The NYPO, for example, performed it only four times between 1922 (Mengelberg) and 1962 (Bernstein) with the intervening ones being with Dimitri Mitropoulos in 1956.

Thanks for trawling through the online concert archives of the VPO, NYPO and RCO which I was too lazy to do. Not sure how I managed to miss the April 1935 Walter Mahler 3 performances but the VPO archive isn't very user friendly especially when attempting to find a particular work/conductor combination. The RCO archive is by far the easiest to use (Dutch spelling of Russian composers apart) and the VPO concert archive could do with a total overhaul.