BaL 1.04.23 - Rachmaninov: Symphonic Dances

[jayne lee wilson]

https://www.marstonrecords.com/search?q=rachmaninov

It's also worth remembering that the Kondrashin actually sounds superb on LP and Bob Witrak's DSD128 version taken from Russian master-tapes

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/...ril-kondrashin

Please can you link to the master tape source details? I can't see them on that HDTT page. (In the past, some of their downloads have been drawn from LP).
I've had some Customer service trouble buying from this site some years ago - faulty files and no help offered...I see that some purchasers of the KK have found the same....(see BTL)...

Have you compared the HDTT transfer to the 2005 Melodiya CD (c/w) The Bells...?
I'll try to sample the HDTT 24/96 one later....but I'm wary of them....

*****

(The Marston CD of Rachmaninov/Mitropoulos was the one Rob Cowan recommended in Gramophone, but it is pretty rare and expensive now....
Juts to confirm - the spotify and Anthology of Russian Symphonic Music transfers on Qobuz are indeed of the 1973 Svetlanov; the only current incarnation of 1986 Live is the Regis.)

****
Interesting about Svetlanov's Elgar performances. One of his greatest ever UK concerts was this BBCSO one of The Bells, which made a big impact on me when it went out live on Radio 3...

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/rachmaninov-the-bells-prokofiev-alexander-nevsky-evgeny-svetlanov/yh1lfa57qf4sb

[Mal]

I have to say i am rather reluctant to buy Melodiya records since the invasion of Ukraine. I have no idea who owns them now but assuming still based in Russia and that Putin may get his hands on if not their profits- taxes paid by them.

It's state owned - in 2015, the managing director was beaten up for questioning direct control of copyright by the Kremlin. https://www.billboard.com/music/musi...y-the-6677640/

Svetlanov was fired from the Russian State Symphony Orchestra by the Russian Ministry of State in 2000 for spending too much time in the West.

Listen on YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW5T9WuInIA

Warner France released a comprehensive Svetlanov box set. Do any profits from that, and similar boxes, provide money for Putin?

[RobP]

Please can you link to the master tape source details? I can't see them on that HDTT page. (In the past, some of their downloads have been drawn from LP).
I've had some Customer service trouble buying from this site some years ago - faulty files and no help offered...I see that some purchasers of the KK have found the same....(see BTL)...

Have you compared the HDTT transfer to the 2005 Melodiya CD (c/w) The Bells...?
I'll try to sample the HDTT 24/96 one later....but I'm wary of them....

*****

(The Marston CD of Rachmaninov/Mitropoulos was the one Rob Cowan recommended in Gramophone, but it is pretty rare and expensive now....
Juts to confirm - the spotify and Anthology of Russian Symphonic Music transfers on Qobuz are indeed of the 1973 Svetlanov; the only current incarnation of 1986 Live is the Regis.)

****
Interesting about Svetlanov's Elgar performances. One of his greatest ever UK concerts was this BBCSO one of The Bells, which made a big impact on me when it went out live on Radio 3...
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/ra.../yh1lfa57qf4sb

Hi, I know the owner of HDTT and review most of his hi-res downloads and he has never used LPs (I cannot comment on the outsourced Furtwangler recordings he hosts), unlike say Pristine and CRQ. Bob Witrak used to use commercial 2 and 4 track tapes - and still occasionally does (e.g. the recent Toscanini Dvorak and Brahms releases) - but there are sources of second/third generation masters available and I know that his Russian releases, including the Kondrashin, derive from a private source.

As we know the majors have twigged that hi-res makes a big difference to the sound quality, but the set-up HDTT use is in a different league, with a top of the range Merrill tape pre-amp, Paravacini Studer etc, cables and isolation plates costing thousand of pounds and Merging Technology software, which enables them to transfer the tapes to DSD256 (the pre Merging Kondrashin used DSD128) and I hope that they will start using DSD512. But even if you buy compressed 16/44.1 CDs the difference in quality to the majors is palpable.

I have Svetlanov's Dream of Gerontius and Second Symphony, which are superb.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Hi, I know the owner of HDTT and review most of his hi-res downloads and he has never used LPs..................
I have Svetlanov's Dream of Gerontius and Second Symphony, which are superb.

I presume the Svetlanov recordings aren't an HDTT issue (I know the Gerontius is Melodiya - a serially updated review is on Musicweb for that, as well).

I came across John Haley in another context and he linked to this article:

https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/conversation-with-john-haley/

He describes how he works on restoring recordings. An interesting read - describing how he has worked on a number of HDTT issues but is not, I think, exclusive to them. He describes how he is working on the Horenstein LSO Mahler 3rd.

(I'm interested in their Leinsdorf Die Walkure in particular. https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/...hony-orchestra ). BTW - apologies about the thread drift - but then, it happens.......

[Barbirollians]

It's state owned - in 2015, the managing director was beaten up for questioning direct control of copyright by the Kremlin. https://www.billboard.com/music/musi...y-the-6677640/

Svetlanov was fired from the Russian State Symphony Orchestra by the Russian Ministry of State in 2000 for spending too much time in the West.

Listen on YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW5T9WuInIA

Warner France released a comprehensive Svetlanov box set. Do any profits from that, and similar boxes, provide money for Putin?

Thanks for this information.

[RobP]

I presume the Svetlanov recordings aren't an HDTT issue (I know the Gerontius is Melodiya - a serially updated review is on Musicweb for that, as well).

I came across John Haley in another context and he linked to this article:

https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/conversation-with-john-haley/

He describes how he works on restoring recordings. An interesting read - describing how he has worked on a number of HDTT issues but is not, I think, exclusive to them. He describes how he is working on the Horenstein LSO Mahler 3rd.

(I'm interested in their Leinsdorf Die Walkure in particular. https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/...hony-orchestra ). BTW - apologies about the thread drift - but then, it happens.......

The Svetlanov's aren't HDTT. I have the Elgar 2 on LP and The Dream on Melodiya CD. There's also a Sea Pictures, which I don't have.

John Haley remasters releases that require additional work, but he is not part of HDTT. The Horenstein Mahler 3 will appear shortly in a version recorded at the same sessions as the Unicorn LPs, using different equipment. If you go to https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/blogs/news there is a John Haley bog about the Walkure, about which I have left an extended comment. The remastered sound in DSD256 is superb, with far more space and better instrumental and vocal timbres than on the Eloquence CDs.

If you are into historical - i.e pre stereo - recordings the HDTT Toscanini Brahms 1 and Dvorak 9 are again brilliant and the Mravinsky's make the JVC, BMG and Melodiya CDs sound as dead and rough as door nails.

[jayne lee wilson]

Hi, I know the owner of HDTT and review most of his hi-res downloads and he has never used LPs (I cannot comment on the outsourced Furtwangler recordings he hosts), unlike say Pristine and CRQ. Bob Witrak used to use commercial 2 and 4 track tapes - and still occasionally does (e.g. the recent Toscanini Dvorak and Brahms releases) - but there are sources of second/third generation masters available and I know that his Russian releases, including the Kondrashin, derive from a private source.


As we know the majors have twigged that hi-res makes a big difference to the sound quality, but the set-up HDTT use is in a different league, with a top of the range Merrill tape pre-amp, Paravacini Studer etc, cables and isolation plates costing thousand of pounds and Merging Technology software, which enables them to transfer the tapes to DSD256 (the pre Merging Kondrashin used DSD128) and I hope that they will start using DSD512. But even if you buy compressed 16/44.1 CDs the difference in quality to the majors is palpable.

I have Svetlanov's Dream of Gerontius and Second Symphony, which are superb.

I followed HDTT developments closely a few years back and was impressed with the set-up as an audiophile myself.
I bought quite a few of their commercial open-reel transfers, and some remastered from LP, including this one -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Jan11/roussel_hdcd206.htm

They were certainly offered then. That Munch isn't available anymore, but it is shame if the sources are not clearly credited. Specific Info I'd much rather have.

I compared the HDTT 24/96 excerpt of the Kondrashin Dances to the 2005 Melodiya CD last night. The first thing I noticed is that the tape noise is exactly the same on both (also on the Russian Anthology version), suggesting a similar source.
The HDTT transfer is at a higher level, more of a warts-and-all, which helps to produce the stronger bass, increased presence and extended treble; detail more vivid. Very impressive in the room.
This does come at the cost of a slight shrillness in upper strings, where the Melodiya CD is a bit sweeter in my present system. As ever it will depend on the system, but with a slightly higher volume setting for the CD the Sound Quality evens out against the HDTT; it replays very well, so the two are quite close really. So if anyone has the 2005 disc (ochre cover) it is very good - they can rest easy... the Qobuz Lossless transfer is fine too.

[HighlandDougie]

John Haley remasters releases that require additional work, but he is not part of HDTT. The Horenstein Mahler 3 will appear shortly in a version recorded at the same sessions as the Unicorn LPs, using different equipment. If you go to https://www.highdeftapetransfers.ca/blogs/news there is a John Haley bog about the Walkure, about which I have left an extended comment. The remastered sound in DSD256 is superb, with far more space and better instrumental and vocal timbres than on the Eloquence CDs.

Many thanks for the link to the HDTT blog page. The excerpt from the Horenstein Fairfield Halls Mahler 3rd has made for an interesting listen. Your comment about, "far more space and better instrumental ... timbres", might equally apply. Mightily impressed with what has been achieved so far. I put some occasional oddities of balance down to the original 4 track recording. Wonderfully 'natural' sounding. Truly a labour of love but well worth it. Much looking forward to the complete release.

[RobP]

I followed HDTT developments closely a few years back and was impressed with the set-up as an audiophile myself.
I bought quite a few of their commercial open-reel transfers, and some remastered from LP, including this one -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Jan11/roussel_hdcd206.htm

They were certainly offered then. That Munch isn't available anymore, but it is shame if the sources are not clearly credited. Specific Info I'd much rather have.

I compared the HDTT 24/96 excerpt of the Kondrashin Dances to the 2005 Melodiya CD last night. The first thing I noticed is that the tape noise is exactly the same on both (also on the Russian Anthology version), suggesting a similar source.
The HDTT transfer is at a higher level, more of a warts-and-all, which helps to produce the stronger bass, increased presence and extended treble; detail more vivid. Very impressive in the room.
This does come at the cost of a slight shrillness in upper strings, where the Melodiya CD is a bit sweeter in my present system. As ever it will depend on the system, but with a slightly higher volume setting for the CD the Sound Quality evens out against the HDTT; it replays very well, so the two are quite close really. So if anyone has the 2005 disc (ochre cover) it is very good - they can rest easy... the Qobuz Lossless transfer is fine too.

I'm not quite sure why you are only downloading medium resolution 24/96. The big advantage comes in DSD128 or 256. I compared the Kondrashin and made the following remarks about the sound in DSD128, 'Despite the miserably short playing time of 34 minutes, this HDTT DSD128 remastering is in a different class to the harsh BMG and Melodiya offerings that have been - rather surprisingly, given the quality of the performances - the only digital transfers to-date, of which only the latter (if you are lucky) is available at present, so a 1969 HMV ASD Melodiya LP was used for comparison. As with so many HDTT transfers the original overall balance and acoustic signature have been retained and clarity and definition are excellent, although much of this is down to the original recording team. All of the instruments have plenty of body, although the LP, almost inevitably, is superior in this respect, but the HDTT has a greater dynamic range and I wouldn’t want to be without either'.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm not quite sure why you are only downloading medium resolution 24/96. The big advantage comes in DSD128 or 256. I compared the Kondrashin and made the following remarks about the sound in DSD128, 'Despite the miserably short playing time of 34 minutes, this HDTT DSD128 remastering is in a different class to the harsh BMG and Melodiya offerings that have been - rather surprisingly, given the quality of the performances - the only digital transfers to-date, of which only the latter (if you are lucky) is available at present, so a 1969 HMV ASD Melodiya LP was used for comparison. As with so many HDTT transfers the original overall balance and acoustic signature have been retained and clarity and definition are excellent, although much of this is down to the original recording team. All of the instruments have plenty of body, although the LP, almost inevitably, is superior in this respect, but the HDTT has a greater dynamic range and I wouldn’t want to be without either'.

As I made clear before, I used the offered 24/96 excerpt on the HDTT site itself, of the first few minutes of the work, and described what I heard. I was unwilling to buy a download for the aforementioned reasons, after technical problems inherent on earlier HDTT purchases which were not resolved; emails not responded to. I'm not alone in this experience.
It is inaccurate to describe 24/96 as "medium-resolution". This hi-res medium is the standard for most Classical Recordings made and issued today; and very good many of them sound (even when issued on CD, which can sound consistently wonderful in the right system).
DSD can be excellent, but the replay chain is more critical in the preservation of its qualities (e.g. in DAC architecture); and the number of recordings issued in pure DSD is far smaller.

(Incidentally, the KK Dances have also been remastered in a 1937-63 Profil Boxset, details here -

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/kyrill-kondrashin-edition-1937-1963-kirill-kondrashin/yx8zxglbb51gc

I have not heard the BMG transfer of the Kondrashin Dances. But most of those issues were earlier and cruder remasterings and some (by no means all) can sound harsh in the upper frequencies, system-dependently.
As I described above, the 2005 Melodiya remastering doesn't sound unacceptably harsh here, compared to the somewhat bolder presentation of the HDTT 24/96 as replayed in my current system via the T&A DAC8, usually with one of the Bezier filters switched in.

This remains true and overall SQ improves further when I replay the physical disc on the Esoteric K-05X, via the PCM filters at various levels of upsampling, or via the DSD processing (fascinating, too, to switch them all off.......and listen to NOS replay....). Like several of the more recent Melodiya remasters (the Rozh Sibelius and Prokofiev, the KK DSCH Symphonies, of which there was also an excellent transfer on the Korean Aulos label) it has been very well done. As I said, it just needed a higher replay level for its qualities to be fully evident.
But everything is component- and system-dependent, as ever. Room-dependent too. (Not to mention the many hidden variables of ears and brains....)...

*****

I'm intrigued that the tape noise sounds the same on all of these remasterings, as this suggests that the source is the same, and wonder exactly which "privately-sourced" master tape you referred to was used for the HDTT transfer, as it must be very close to or the same as the one used for the two Melodiya CD/lossless issues.

[visualnickmos]

As I made clear before, I used the offered 24/96 excerpt on the HDTT site itself, of the first few minutes of the work, and described what I heard. I was unwilling to buy a download for the aforementioned reasons, after technical problems inherent on earlier HDTT purchases which were not resolved; emails not responded to. I'm not alone in this experience.
It is inaccurate to describe 24/96 as "medium-resolution". This hi-res medium is the standard for most Classical Recordings made and issued today; and very good many of them sound (even when issued on CD, which can sound consistently wonderful in the right system).
DSD can be excellent, but the replay chain is more critical in the preservation of its qualities (e.g. in DAC architecture); and the number of recordings issued in pure DSD is far smaller.

(Incidentally, the KK Dances have also been remastered in a 1937-63 Profil Boxset, details here -

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/kyrill-kondrashin-edition-1937-1963-kirill-kondrashin/yx8zxglbb51gc

I have not heard the BMG transfer of the Kondrashin Dances. But most of those issues were earlier and cruder remasterings and some (by no means all) can sound harsh in the upper frequencies, system-dependently.
As I described above, the 2005 Melodiya remastering doesn't sound unacceptably harsh here, compared to the somewhat bolder presentation of the HDTT 24/96 as replayed in my current system via the T&A DAC8, usually with one of the Bezier filters switched in.

This remains true and overall SQ improves further when I replay the physical disc on the Esoteric K-05X, via the PCM filters at various levels of upsampling, or via the DSD processing (fascinating, too, to switch them all off.......and listen to NOS replay....). Like several of the more recent Melodiya remasters (the Rozh Sibelius and Prokofiev, the KK DSCH Symphonies, of which there was also an excellent transfer on the Korean Aulos label) it has been very well done. As I said, it just needed a higher replay level for its qualities to be fully evident.
But everything is component- and system-dependent, as ever. Room-dependent too. (Not to mention the many hidden variables of ears and brains....)...

*****

I'm intrigued that the tape noise sounds the same on all of these remasterings, as this suggests that the source is the same, and wonder exactly which "privately-sourced" master tape you referred to was used for the HDTT transfer, as it must be very close to or the same as the one used for the two Melodiya CD/lossless issues.

All this tech talk of resolution and numbers etc, means nothing to me. I like to play my CDs on my decent system, and leave it at that! Sit back, enjoy, glass of wine, or if in my sunny studio, boiler suit on, paint and canvas ready go!

[gradus]

Flanders and Swann got it with their The Song of Reproduction: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fJmmDkvQyc

[Master Jacques]

Flanders and Swann got it with their The Song of Reproduction: https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fJmmDkvQyc

I'd never actually heard this brilliant number - many thanks. F&S nailing audiophile excess quite remorselessly ... what a treat!

[Bryn]

I'd never actually heard this brilliant number - many thanks. F&S nailing audiophile excess quite remorselessly ... what a treat!

Then there's:

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPXQ9fotZM)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'd never actually heard this brilliant number - many thanks. F&S nailing audiophile excess quite remorselessly ... what a treat!

Same here. I recall the time when I had the best equipment I could almost afford for the reproduction of my beloved collection of LPs. But all I seemed to hear were the faults: mistracking due to surface/stylus dirt, static electricity, recording overmodulation, background hiss, etc. On the other hand, listening to Radio 3 never seemed to cause any distress, even through indifferent equipment. This obsession largely evaporated on 1.03.1983, when I bought my first CD and player, though doubts still persisted when listening to early DG discs.
Over time, I’ve become increasingly aware that the difference between sound systems is really quite small: very low bit-rates are easily identified as inadequate, but the higher you go, the less significant the differences become.
Expensive cables? The tooth fairy?

Of course, there are differences between different audio platforms/equipment/software, but not enough to seriously alter one’s appreciation of a performance. I spent a large amount of money before realising this.