BaL 25.03.23 - Handel: Water Music

[RichardB]

If I remember correctly, Robert King did the same programme with the Telemann for Hyperion.

He did, but King's disc has all the Handel first, whereas Bernardini has the F major Suite, then Telemann, then the D/G major suite.

[Master Jacques]

Impossible for me ever to tire of Handel's endlessly comforting score. Also for me, Pinnock still does everything slightly more 'right' than the opposition, whether it be the lively and chipper Norrington, or the grandiose but piquant Niquet (deficient for me in rhythmic precision, in keeping with its 'outdoor' ambience).

King's double act is pleasantly tasteful: but listening to the Telemann in tandem only serves to highlight Handel's supreme quality - inventive and clever though Hamburger Ebb und Fluth undoubtedly is.

[RichardB]

I would recommend that people listen also to the recording by the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien, always worth listening to in their unfortunately relatively small number of recordings. It was released in 2013 and uses a new critical edition published six years earlier, based on the oldest manuscript copy which at that time had only recently come to light. The only difference I can hear is that the movements are in a different order from the usual one, but the main thing is that everything is so stylishly played, probably too fast for those brought up on HUPP performances, but highly colourful, lively and imaginative (with a sometimes overactive theorbo and some very convincing added timpani parts).

[smittims]

Hi, Bryn , re Boulez Beethoven 5th , Joan Peyser said that he stood in for Klemperer at a Festival Hall concert in 1966 and CBS decided to record his interpretation, but failed to sell it. It didn't stay in the catalogue long. I remember its appearance,the critics trying to find some Boulezian revelation in the conducting, but I couldn't hear anything unusual. Apparently he later conducted the Seventh and Ninth in New York , by which time of course he was doing all sorts of things ike Haydn and Schumann, but CBS didn't record them.

[Bryn]

I would recommend that people listen also to the recording by the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien, always worth listening to in their unfortunately relatively small number of recordings. It was released in 2013 and uses a new critical edition published six years earlier, based on the oldest manuscript copy which at that time had only recently come to light. The only difference I can hear is that the movements are in a different order from the usual one, but the main thing is that everything is so stylishly played, probably too fast for those brought up on HUPP performances, but highly colourful, lively and imaginative (with a sometimes overactive theorbo and some very convincing added timpani parts).

Took some finding on QOBUZ but eventually got there.

[MickyD]

I didn't know about the Huss version, sounds interesting, although it gets pulled to shreds by a listener on Amazon !
It's a long time since I listened to the 1978 Hogwood version...maybe sounds tame now, but I remember how it sounded so revelatory when given at the Proms around the same time.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, personally, I never tire of it, especially if it is in exciting performances such as the Niquet version cited by Bryn. Another recording that I enjoy is that of Marc Minkowski. And of course, if you really want your ears tickled, there is always that outrageous Harnoncourt/VCM account which caused such a stir many years ago (and which seems to be missing from the list).

With the Schubert 5th or Debussy Images, you have symphonic masterpieces whose depth and complexity can be rewarding and revealing to discuss across performance practice history, the recorded catalogue, and the range of listener response.


But with such a celebratory, occasional pop-classic without much musical complexity, the contrasts - large modern orchestra, chamber orchestra, period instruments - are just too obvious to be terribly interesting in the BaL context (let alone the choosing of favourites..).
The work serves its purpose pretty well howsoever the musicians present it.

Several versions of the Handel Wassermusik on the shelves here, from Zefiro back to Orpheus.... but it is now so far beyond the pale of my familiarity. I doubtless overplayed it long ago, in the galaxy-far-away of music loving youth.

I wonder when BaL (or IoR) ever covered suites by Telemann...? Symphonies by CPE Bach (anniversary surveys aside...)?

[Pulcinella]

I don't think that we should be dismissive of pieces such as this being the subject of a BaL.
There aren't as many recordings as one might think (and certainly not as many as for Beethoven 5!).
The suites may be familiar to most/all of the contributors here, but we've already had some interesting comments.
Newcomers to the classical world (and R3 in particular) are unlikely to listen to Record Review, I would have thought, if that's who the BBC are aiming to attract, and Interpretations on Record might be more suited to music such as this, but I think we'll all learn something.

[Tony Halstead]

Impossible for me ever to tire of Handel's endlessly comforting score. Also for me, Pinnock still does everything slightly more 'right' than the opposition, whether it be the lively and chipper Norrington, or the grandiose but piquant Niquet (deficient for me in rhythmic precision, in keeping with its 'outdoor' ambience).

King's double act is pleasantly tasteful: but listening to the Telemann in tandem only serves to highlight Handel's supreme quality - inventive and clever though Hamburger Ebb und Fluth undoubtedly is.

Is the Robert King Water Music ( Hyperion) 'NLA'? I remember playing on that recording and enjoying it very much. Also, if I may say so, I think the J.E.G. version ( the later 1990s Philips one, not the earlier 'Erato') has some good things, apart from the rather glaring, 'in your face' prominence given to the horns ( guilty, m'lud! A technological fault, not the conductor's request, as I recall).

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't think that we should be dismissive of pieces such as this being the subject of a BaL.
There aren't as many recordings as one might think (and certainly not as many as for Beethoven 5!).
The suites may be familiar to most/all of the contributors here, but we've already had some interesting comments.
Newcomers to the classical world (and R3 in particular) are unlikely to listen to Record Review, I would have thought, if that's who the BBC are aiming to attract, and Interpretations on Record might be more suited to music such as this, but I think we'll all learn something.

Yes there’s a great deal to be said. I wonder whether the BAL will discuss the various re-orchestrations?
I am also trying to think of another piece of music intended for live performance on a barge on the Thames . Were it to happen now it would attract Donnerstag aus Licht-ian levels of media coverage.I think the horns (see TH’s post) are supposed to be loud!

[MickyD]

Is the Robert King Water Music ( Hyperion) 'NLA'? I remember playing on that recording and enjoying it very much. Also, if I may say so, I think the J.E.G. version ( the later 1990s Philips one, not the earlier 'Erato') has some good things, apart from the rather glaring, 'in your face' prominence given to the horns ( guilty, m'lud! A technological fault, not the conductor's request, as I recall).

Yes, still available - I notice that it has now been coupled with the Fireworks Music on Helios, Hyperion's budget label. I guess the original release with the Telemann can also be sought out.

[Pulcinella]

Not entirely unrelated.....

Just checking to see if I had a score and discovered that I have two copies of the Lea Pocket Scores edition of the Opus 6 Concerti Grossi (LPS71 and LPS72).
You need good eyesight to read them, but if anyone would like the spares then send me a PM with your address and I'll pop them in the post for you.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have the Eulenburg Audio+Score recording. It’s the Naxos Mallon recording, which is fine.
But the editor of the Eulenburg score was more than a little presumptuous, adding tempo markings (usually “presto”) that have nothing to do with what Handel wrote. The composer didn’t add such markings in most movements.

[Pulcinella]

Well… there’s scope for discussing recordings of anything, in the Recordings in Discussion sub-forum.

[Darloboy]

With the Schubert 5th or Debussy Images, you have symphonic masterpieces whose depth and complexity can be rewarding and revealing to discuss across performance practice history, the recorded catalogue, and the range of listener response.


But with such a celebratory, occasional pop-classic without much musical complexity, the contrasts - large modern orchestra, chamber orchestra, period instruments - are just too obvious to be terribly interesting in the BaL context (let alone the choosing of favourites..).
The work serves its purpose pretty well howsoever the musicians present it.

Several versions of the Handel Wassermusik on the shelves here, from Zefiro back to Orpheus.... but it is now so far beyond the pale of my familiarity. I doubtless overplayed it long ago, in the galaxy-far-away of music loving youth.

I wonder when BaL (or IoR) ever covered suites by Telemann...? Symphonies by CPE Bach (anniversary surveys aside...)?

It's not actually that long since BaL covered Telemann's Wassermusik: Simon Heighes did it in June 2017 (Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin was the winner). Before that, however, you need to go back to June 2002 when George Pratt did a survey of Telemann's then available recordings (lots of suites included). The recorder suite in A minor was covered by Nicholas Anderson in April 1981

There's been 2 CPE Bach surveys, both including symphonies: Richard Wigmore in October 1996 and Simon Heighes in September 2005.

Handel's Water Music hasn't been covered since April 2009. Given that the series name is Building A Library, I don't really object to the programme covering this piece once in 14 years (although once every 20 years might be better). It's a work that really should be in every new listener's library, even if it's over-familiar to many of us.