BaL 22.04.23 - Schubert: Symphony no. 5 in B flat D. 485

[MickyD]

Maybe that is all changing though. We don't have to "build a library" any more, we can go through life without ever listening to the same performance of Schubert 5 twice at no extra expenditure. Which means that there's a pressure on performers (or, more precisely, labels) to do something "refreshingly different" rather than something listeners can spend some of their hard earned cash on and enjoy repeatedly (in what I suppose is becoming a "dated" way). I'm glad I listened once to Jacobs's recording but I don't think I'll do so again.

I maybe should have said in my previous post that I am one of those oldies who doesn't do streaming...that limits me, I guess, and possibly means I'm not so qualified to comment in this debate as others.

[Maclintick]

One of the joys of the wide (and usually cheap) availability of recordings is that we can now listen to a variety of interpretations in a way that we couldn't when I started to listen to BaL in the late '60s. The idea of a library version is therefore rather less important and it's great to hear alternative ideas in the way that we do with live performances. Indeed recordings are now typically rather cheaper than concert tickets.

As I type, I'm listening to Mahler 4 in a thought provoking performance that is certainly not my 'library choice' but I'm very glad to have it on CD, thankyou Ebay!

You make a good point, discussed on this forum in connection with BAL, which is whether the very idea of a library choice has much validity in the age of internet streaming and evolving listener preferences. I haven't bought a CD in a long time, except as a present for Mrs M, who still has a predilection for the physical format, but I can happily spare time to clock the B'Rock Jacobs take on Schubert 5 and multifarious versions on Spotify without risking shrinkage to my wallet.

[RichardB]

I maybe should have said in my previous post that I am one of those oldies who doesn't do streaming...that limits me, I guess, and possibly means I'm not so qualified to comment in this debate as others.

The thing is I do want to have recordings that I can keep returning to and finding something new in each time, and which I know aren't going to disappoint, as well as having the opportunity to make new discoveries. A large proportion of the music I listen to is available in only one recording anyway, and electronic compositions are only ever going to be available in one recording. Anyway, I've listened to Schubert 5 more times in the past week than I usually do in a year, which has certainly contributed to "building a library" of memories.

[Master Jacques]

One of the joys of the wide (and usually cheap) availability of recordings is that we can now listen to a variety of interpretations in a way that we couldn't when I started to listen to BaL in the late '60s. The idea of a library version is therefore rather less important and it's great to hear alternative ideas in the way that we do with live performances. Indeed recordings are now typically rather cheaper than concert tickets.

Yes indeed. Best not forget, though, how valuable we all found BaL when we were just setting out on our musical odyssey, at least to give us a compass to steer by. That's not a function the slot can ever forget: there are always newcomers who need the basics.

[Alison]

Of the Jacobs I suspect the late Robert Layton might have said ‘One is too aware of an interpreter at work’.

(CBSO/Gardner more my cup of tea!)

[Master Jacques]

The thing is I do want to have recordings that I can keep returning to and finding something new in each time, and which I know aren't going to disappoint, as well as having the opportunity to make new discoveries. A large proportion of the music I listen to is available in only one recording anyway, and electronic compositions are only ever going to be available in one recording. Anyway, I've listened to Schubert 5 more times in the past week than I usually do in a year, which has certainly contributed to "building a library" of memories.

Likewise. It's a great pity the Forum isn't doing this particular BaL on air, as a communal job!

[Maclintick]

It’s only in the era of recording and to a lesser extent dictatorial modern scholarship that the idea of a settled score in this sort of work gained ground. 19th century musicians took enormous liberties . So to a lesser extent did giants like Toscanini. I listened to the Jacobs almost immediately after the Abbado performance and the scherzo didn’t jar with me at all. Interestingly they both took more or less the same time over it.

At least Jacobs actually plays the opening pianissimo which makes me think some of the larger modern bands just can’t do it or can’t be bothered.

But COE/Abbado certainly isn't in the category of "can't be bothered", scrupulously observing the pp marking in movt 1 until the shock of the sudden f at bar 42, so I'd be interested to know just who you think is ? BTW, as I indicated in an earlier post, Abbado's COE string strength corresponds closely to Otto Hatwig's band at the work's first outing. Who are these miscreant "modern bands" who can't be bothered to follow a composer's instructions ? I don't regard Philharmonia/Klemperer or RPO/Beecham as modern bands, BTW, let alone Toscanini, & nor can I accept that modern scholarship is somehow "dictatorial". Everyone wants the right notes to be in the right order, surely ? The fact that Brahms's edition of 1884 of D.485 stood as definitive for over 100 years suggests that (a) he did a great job with the available material (there's no extant autograph AFAIK) & (b) that no-one at Breitkopf was going to argue with him...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Maybe that is all changing though. We don't have to "build a library" any more, we can go through life without ever listening to the same performance of Schubert 5 twice at no extra expenditure. Which means that there's a pressure on performers (or, more precisely, labels) to do something "refreshingly different" rather than something listeners can spend some of their hard earned cash on and enjoy repeatedly (in what I suppose is becoming a "dated" way). I'm glad I listened once to Jacobs's recording but I don't think I'll do so again.

Good point. Recordings have become as abundant as performances and a lot cheaper. It’s completely changed our relationship with music and the electronic media in general. What an extraordinary world we live in. A recording release used to be a major event. Now they are more or less disposable except that , thanks to streaming , they are there for ever.

[Ein Heldenleben]

But COE/Abbado certainly isn't in the category of "can't be bothered", scrupulously observing the pp marking in movt 1 until the shock of the sudden f at bar 42, so I'd be interested to know just who you think is ? BTW, as I indicated in an earlier post, Abbado's COE string strength corresponds closely to Otto Hatwig's band at the work's first outing. Who are these miscreant "modern bands" who can't be bothered to follow a composer's instructions ? I don't regard Philharmonia/Klemperer or RPO/Beecham as modern bands, BTW, let alone Toscanini, & nor can I accept that modern scholarship is somehow "dictatorial". Everyone wants the right notes to be in the right order, surely ? The fact that Brahms's edition of 1884 of D.485 stood as definitive for over 100 years suggests that (a) he did a great job with the available material (there's no extant autograph AFAIK) & (b) that no-one at Breitkopf was going to argue with him...

In fact in many ways I prefer the Abbado to the Jacobs . But the latter plays the opening quieter than Abbado assuming consistent transfer and output levels on Qobuz.

[Master Jacques]

I've had two Schubert 5ths spinning tonight. First was Norrington (revisiting him after Jacobs and Gaigg), and this time I felt a comparative weakness in his failure to provide enough contrast in tempi between the four movements - a tendency which makes all four much of a muchness in (admittedly attractive) chamber ambience and colour, as well as pace. But there's nothing eccentric or exhibitionist about the alert intelligence, instrumental balance and characterful playing, especially from the flautist (was it Lisa Beznosiuk at the time, I wonder?)

Then came Harnoncourt and the Concertgebouw ... powerfully Beethovenian and 'Big Band' in style, with mighty fists for the sforzandi but not strong on understated wit, and marginally unsmiling. Yet the fleetness and graceful mastery of structure (stretching over the arc of the whole symphony) are very impressive. It has the same virtues as his Haydn recordings with the same orchestra, of which I am very fond.

I'm certainly delighted to have both of these in my library.

[french frank]

There has been off-board comment regarding the direction this thread has taken. It might be more valuable just to move on. Please.

[Barbirollians]

I think this thread appears to be back on track .

The Bohm I was referring to was the late VPO I think coupled with the Pastoral on DG Originals.

A copy of the Brugge coupled with the second and third has arrived and it has confirmed my very favourable first impressions.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I've had two Schubert 5ths spinning tonight. First was Norrington (revisiting him after Jacobs and Gaigg), and this time I felt a comparative weakness in his failure to provide enough contrast in tempi between the four movements - a tendency which makes all four much of a muchness in (admittedly attractive) chamber ambience and colour, as well as pace. But there's nothing eccentric or exhibitionist about the alert intelligence, instrumental balance and characterful playing, especially from the flautist (was it Lisa Beznosiuk at the time, I wonder?)

Then came Harnoncourt and the Concertgebouw ... powerfully Beethovenian and 'Big Band' in style, with mighty fists for the sforzandi but not strong on understated wit, and marginally unsmiling. Yet the fleetness and graceful mastery of structure (stretching over the arc of the whole symphony) are very impressive. It has the same virtues as his Haydn recordings with the same orchestra, of which I am very fond.

I'm certainly delighted to have both of these in my library.

I must add Harnoncourt and the Royal Concertgebouw to the list of honour of those who offer a genuine pianissimo and violin staccato at the opening. Or to be more accurate what sounds like a pianissimo in relation to the forte passages. And a big band to boot ! It is as you say a bit stolid in comparison to Abbado . There is also an unpleasant slight edge to the fiddles when above the stave - almost distorted.
I suspect on some transfers to the QoBuz server we are hearing CD’s that have been remastered through the years - compressed perhaps - so that dynamic range of the original playing is not accurately reflected.

Not sure how much more Schubert 5 I can take…

I’m liking the Holliger Kammerorchster Basel. The quietest opening so far as this appears to be becoming an obsession. Slightly unpleasant string edge though.
Also heard Klemperer Philharmonia , Bohm and Abbado VPO . So much wonderful string playing . I’d be happy with any of them.

[Goon525]

Qobuz do not dynamically compress recordings, and there would be no point in doing so in their environment.

[Bryn]

Qobuz do not dynamically compress recordings, and there would be no point in doing so in their environment.

No, but the files they are provided with by the record companies might just have been 'remastered' by those companies, with dynamic compression being used as part of that remastering. I very much doubt it, though.