BaL 11.02.23 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 23 in F minor "Appassionata"

[Ein Heldenleben]

It’s not that simple. I once sat at the front of the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. The concert included Rachmaninov’s 1st PC. It was painfully loud at that distance. Somewhere in the hall it was probably just right.
In the home, I don’t think I’d want an 1815 pianoforte, but a Steinway Model O would be brilliant.

Interesting concerto that . With Rach 2 Rachmaninov’s orchestration is so thick in places the pianist has to play very loud to make themselves heard. That opening melody with the big arpeggios from the piano : I sometimes think you could play anything the string texture is so thick. I went to a Simon Trepescki performance of Rach 2 at the QEH and heard very little of him in that movement. I was in the second row for Bartok 2 ( loud piece full of octave and block chords.) played by Sun Wook Kim a couple of weeks ago - he was loud but not unpleasantly so.

[Bryn]

As a long-standing fan of early pianos, I wouldn't describe any of them as sounding like pub pianos, either.

Nothing like this (of which I do actually admit to being rather fond, having played it non-stop in my childhood!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0SZftatIA

One of Conlon Nanarrow's 2 player pianos sounded not too dissimilar. Its hammers were faced with leather to give the tone he desired. That instrument can be heard in some of the Studies included in the 1750 Arch Records set. These days that set is available as an Other Minds Records boxed set of CDs. The instrument was not available for use at the time the later Wergo recordings were made.

[jayne lee wilson]

It’s not that simple. I once sat at the front of the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. The concert included Rachmaninov’s 1st PC. It was painfully loud at that distance. Somewhere in the hall it was probably just right.
In the home, I don’t think I’d want an 1815 pianoforte, but a Steinway Model O would be brilliant.

Or perhaps something like....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144922871965?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338749374&toolid=20006&customid=GB_619_144922871965.145620983889~1869225398043-g_CjwKCAiA3KefBhByEiwAi2LDHKodlKGu0_OaExvnQFDpaTqIS4GroY0xBfhD_TZ5o1wuuuD_g4-_-BoChOUQAvD_BwE

Or....

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for-sale/steinway-sons/steinway-sons-a188/steinway-sons-steinway-sons-a188-428633.html?cooKampania_nazwa=Dopalacz_gads&gclid=CjwKCAiA3KefBhByEiwAi2LDHDVWadJXKg_N3ZJ1LYkchDPT9qNNVCBbJXY9yAKr5UECjRi4E6fKyxoCktEQAvD_BwE

With, of course, instruments d'époque, in numbers apt to the time and the acoustical space....then, Rachmaninov's orchestration might seem less clavieristically disadvantageous.....

We recall similar complaints aimed at the Schumann Symphonies - oh, some decades ago; and look what happened to them...

[mikealdren]

As a long-standing fan of early pianos, I wouldn't describe any of them as sounding like pub pianos, either.

Nothing like this (of which I do actually admit to being rather fond, having played it non-stop in my childhood!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0SZftatIA

Surely the main characteristic of pub pianos is that they are janglingly out of tune.

[Parry1912]

All this reminds me of a review by Richard Osborne in Gramophone in March 1985:

BEETHOVEN Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat major, Op. 106, "Hammerklavier".
Peter Serkin (forte-pno). Pro Arte/Conifer digital ® PAD181

“Hans Keller once wisely observed that original instruments are all very well; the trouble is, we don't have original ears. Hearing the Hammerklavier Sonata played on a well restored Graf fortepiano and hearing its first two movements played, very properly, at speed, is an all-too-extraordinary experience. The improvisations of the local Horowitz on the pub piano at closing time is what most immediately comes to mind. The ear adjusts, of course, and specialists in period instruments will no doubt listen fascinated. The playing has splendid bravura and dash to it and the instrumental sonorities in the great slow movement are (despite some extraordinary noises off) revealing and occasionally sublime. But if this is what the Hammerklavier really sounded like in Beethoven's day one is tempted to conclude that the great man's deafness was no small mercy.”



He may feel differently these days, of course.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Surely the main characteristic of pub pianos is that they are janglingly out of tune.

The old pianofortes can be tunes correctly, but the jangly characteristic is nevertheless still there. It’s difficult to like.

[Bryn]

The old pianofortes can be tune[d] correctly, but the jangly characteristic is nevertheless still there. It’s difficult to like.

For you, maybe, but for others, the timbral qualities of well-maintained percussive keyboard instruments offer a source of great aural beauty. No need to be a 'Rollo' about it.

[vinteuil]

It’s difficult to like.

... read : "I, Alpensinfonie, find it difficult to like."

And possibly, "I, Alpensinfonie, find it difficult to understand that many people like them."

.

[jayne lee wilson]

All this reminds me of a review by Richard Osborne in Gramophone in March 1985:

BEETHOVEN Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat major, Op. 106, "Hammerklavier".
Peter Serkin (forte-pno). Pro Arte/Conifer digital ® PAD181

“Hans Keller once wisely observed that original instruments are all very well; the trouble is, we don't have original ears. Hearing the Hammerklavier Sonata played on a well restored Graf fortepiano and hearing its first two movements played, very properly, at speed, is an all-too-extraordinary experience. The improvisations of the local Horowitz on the pub piano at closing time is what most immediately comes to mind. The ear adjusts, of course, and specialists in period instruments will no doubt listen fascinated. The playing has splendid bravura and dash to it and the instrumental sonorities in the great slow movement are (despite some extraordinary noises off) revealing and occasionally sublime. But if this is what the Hammerklavier really sounded like in Beethoven's day one is tempted to conclude that the great man's deafness was no small mercy.”



He may feel differently these days, of course.

Probably not, to judge from his recent reviews, where he seems to be retrenching into a sighing regret for older standards, in Bruckner's and Beethoven's music especially...and never does instrumental reviewing anyway.
As a great admirer of Keller, that dated, rather shallow, platitudinous much-quoted comment always disappoints me; always trotted out as some species of "proof". But what of?
As if humankind is incapable of imaginative, historically aware attention, perception relative to the musical context, to time and acoustical space? To listen with open mind and ears, not with the reactionary sneers and clichéd denigrations of an old buffer?

Osborne was quoted from 1985. Early pianos of the last few years, whether restored or copied, are both far more varied and more sonorously capable than those of nearly 40 years ago. Most denigrators take little trouble to hear a wider range or update their knowledge, so Pashchenko seems largely ignored, even though she often uses more than one piano on a single album, going into great explanatory detail about them.
Apart from her astounding Beethoven album on the aforementioned 1824 Graf, she is of course a professor of the fortepiano; her writings in the booklet notes reward close attention, as much as her performances.

Do also take a look at the work of Chris Maene, who has much to say about the development and evolution of the piano through the centuries.

https://www.chrismaene.be/nl/straight-strung-concert-grand/proven-historical-values-brought-back-through-innovation/

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... read : "I, Alpensinfonie, find it difficult to like."

Fair comment. I accept the criticism, and the suggested correction.

As a great admirer of Keller, that dated, rather shallow, platitudinous much-quoted comment always disappoints me; always trotted out as some species of "proof". But what of?
As if humankind is incapable of imaginative, historically aware attention, perception relative to the musical context, to time and acoustical space? To listen with open mind and ears, not with the reactionary sneers and clichéd denigrations of an old buffer?

That's largely true, of course, but if the resulting sound causes some people displeasure, then this doesn't automatically mean expressing this is a reactionary sneer. I do find the sound of early instruments rather interesting, but in the case of early pianos, I very much feel there was still some way to go. If a composer wrote a semibreve, which faded to almost nothing long before it was due to end, it leaves a great deal (possibly too much) to the imagination.

[MickyD]

I've mentioned them before, but there is a splendid series of short videos on YouTube presented by Edwin Beunk explaining the development of the piano with examples played by his wife on various instruments from their collection. Fascinating viewing.

[Bryn]

Bryn, It would be interesting to here your view on the sound characteristics of these forte pianos, given that it's hard to describe a sound in words. Are any of them like pub pianos?
I liked very much the Bratigam sound; from his interpretation I got a sense of determination, even desperation at the end, as IB said, but maybe not quite enough exuberance.

I had hoped to be able to say more on the various instruments used in recordings I have. Unfortunately, I have managed to pick up an ear infection which is currently resulting in considerably impaired hearing in my right ear. Nonetheless, I am currently listening to the Komen. In the final movement, he sounds almost happy-go-lucky. More the flibbertigibbet than a passionate lover. That's not to say I am not enjoying it. It's an interesting 'take' on the work the composer called "La Passionata", not "Appassionata".

[Beresford]

Sorry about your unfortunate ear infection - I have only ever had such twice, and I found them intensely annoying.
No hurry for the comparison - weeks or months would be fine. Hope you get better soon.

[Bryn]

Sorry about your unfortunate ear infection - I have only ever had such twice, and I found them intensely annoying.
No hurry for the comparison - weeks or months would be fine. Hope you get better soon.

Thanks, It's more of an annoyance than the cause of any great discomfort, though it did mean I dropped out of going to hear Butcher, Moore, Previn, et al, at Iklectik, as planned for tonight.

[visualnickmos]

I was a bit surprised that Wilhelm Kempff was not mentioned in the BaL, and more than a bit surprised that he hasn't been mentioned in the thread - as far as I know. It is a masterly traversal of the cycle.