BaL 11.02.23 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 23 in F minor "Appassionata"

[Mandryka]

I don't enjoy Brautigam, I find it too much in the spirit of "Brechen muss das Klavier." Brutal, insensitive and superficial.

[visualnickmos]

I don't enjoy Brautigam, I find it too much in the spirit of "Brechen muss das Klavier." Brutal, insensitive and superficial.

I concur. It becomes nothing but an uncontrolled tantrum on a plinky-plinky piano in the "Dog and Duck"

[CallMePaul]

I agree, especially after listening to the winner in full; the sound is great. My comment was directed at other fps...

I hope that this remark is not aimed at the Broadwood, Graf etc fortepianos played by Paul Badura-Skoda in his Beethoven and Schubert sonata cycles. PB-S acquired these instrumewnts over several years and since his death most have been in a museum in Linz. I have not heard the complete Brautigam performance but I was surprised to hear only one fortepiano version included. PB-S did not even get a mention - perhaps his style is too "classical" for many pianists who prefer a freer, more "romantic" approach?

[Mal]

And very helpfully they didn’t tell us which Brendel recording it was that they played.

They did say "90s". Might that be enough to track it down? The Phillips "two-fer" I have is from performances orginally recorded in the 70s. He does have (at least...) one recorded in 90s:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-piano-sonatas-path%C3%A9tique-moonlight-appassionata-mw0001355297

[rauschwerk]

I don't enjoy Brautigam, I find it too much in the spirit of "Brechen muss das Klavier." Brutal, insensitive and superficial.

I disagree, but wonder if part of the problem is in setting the listening level. The fortepiano is an instrument I have never heard live. How much quieter than a modern piano is it? Having listened to the incredibly well recorded Lewis in this piece, I found that a a peak level of 10 dB below the modern piano sounded about right for Bräutigam. Does anyone have any data on this?

[Bryn]

I disagree, but wonder if part of the problem is in setting the listening level. The fortepiano is an instrument I have never heard live. How much quieter than a modern piano is it? Having listened to the incredibly well recorded Lewis in this piece, I found that a a peak level of 10 dB below the modern piano sounded about right for Bräutigam. Does anyone have any data on this?

Indeed, Beethoven may have broken a piano or two but Brautigam, while taking the instrument close to its limit, does not do likewise.

[Barbirollians]

They did say "90s". Might that be enough to track it down? The Phillips "two-fer" I have is from performances orginally recorded in the 70s. He does have (at least...) one recorded in 90s:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/beeth...a-mw0001355297

Brendel's 1970s version is a classic. Although I very much enjoyed his Op109-111 of his 1990s set I do not seem to have bought any of the others.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I disagree, but wonder if part of the problem is in setting the listening level. The fortepiano is an instrument I have never heard live. How much quieter than a modern piano is it? Having listened to the incredibly well recorded Lewis in this piece, I found that a a peak level of 10 dB below the modern piano sounded about right for Bräutigam. Does anyone have any data on this?

No data but having heard a few - Significantly quieter than a modern Steinway model D . Smaller for a start with less of a body to resonate and less effective sound board . Hammers and action are not as powerful and strings not as thick. But louder than a harpsichord. I often think they are a better bet for continuo parts at the opera than those - they cut through more.
Even modern Steinways aren’t really that loud . They don’t really fill a large concert hall like the Royal Festival Hall or Royal Albert Hall. However they would be pretty ear splitting in a normal living room. A fortepiano would be pretty much ideal.

[Barbirollians]

Did Solomon get a mention ? I only heard the end of the BAL and listening to Solomon again this morning - it is outstanding.

[Bryn]

Interesting to hear how different the various instruments in the 'HIPP' recordings I have sound:

Badura-Skoda (Broadwood, 1815)
Binns (Dulcken c. 1785)
Brautigam (McNulty, after Graf c. 1819)
Komen (Fritz, 1825)
Meniker (Salvatore Lagrassa, 1815)
Newman (copy of English Clementi, 1825)
Tann (Adlam, after Nanette Streicher, 1815)

The Dulken stands up very well, especially considering the year and mode of its construction.

[Beresford]

Bryn, It would be interesting to here your view on the sound characteristics of these forte pianos, given that it's hard to describe a sound in words. Are any of them like pub pianos?
I liked very much the Bratigam sound; from his interpretation I got a sense of determination, even desperation at the end, as IB said, but maybe not quite enough exuberance.

[Bryn]

Bryn, It would be interesting to here your view on the sound characteristics of these forte pianos, given that it's hard to describe a sound in words. Are any of them like pub pianos?
I liked very much the Bratigam sound; from his interpretation I got a sense of determination, even desperation at the end, as IB said, but maybe not quite enough exuberance.

None sound like any pub piano I have encountered. The Dulcken I was just listening to has a fairly mellow sound, compared to, say, the Graf copy. I will try and characterise each of them as I get to re-listen. However, I have temporarily mislaid the Newman (copy of English Clementi, 18250 so that may take quite a while.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Even modern Steinways aren’t really that loud . They don’t really fill a large concert hall like the Royal Festival Hall or Royal Albert Hall. However they would be pretty ear splitting in a normal living room. A fortepiano would be pretty much ideal.

It’s not that simple. I once sat at the front of the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. The concert included Rachmaninov’s 1st PC. It was painfully loud at that distance. Somewhere in the hall it was probably just right.
In the home, I don’t think I’d want an 1815 pianoforte, but a Steinway Model O would be brilliant.

[jayne lee wilson]

Bryn, It would be interesting to here your view on the sound characteristics of these forte pianos, given that it's hard to describe a sound in words. Are any of them like pub pianos?
I liked very much the Bratigam sound; from his interpretation I got a sense of determination, even desperation at the end, as IB said, but maybe not quite enough exuberance.

Try Olga Pashchenko, who is stunningly articulate and very powerful on an original 1824 Graf recorded at the Bonn Beethovenhaus, with bass registers at once tuneful and clear but capable of great impact; they have a springy resonance to them which is very appealing. You can always hear through the textures top to bottom, even in the busiest passages, but this does not take any intensity away, far from it.The Waldstein and the Les Adieux are just as compelling in the precise but impassioned performances.... especially if replayed at 24/88.2, allowing the full range of phrase, colour and texture to speak and to sing...

A great exemplar for how apt to the music these early instruments can be.

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/beethoven-piano-sonatas-21-23-26-olga-pashchenko/cktfqdqeqn6ob

From the Alpha album booklet note:

"Details of the instrument played

Fortepiano by conrad graF (1782–1851), manuFacturer’s series number 875, vienna 1824
displayed at the beethoven house, bonn: on permanent loan by the hummel Family
range: six octaves, F1 to F4; three strings to a note. Five pedals, From left to right, as Follows: soft pedal (or ‘due corde’), bassoon pedal, moderator pedal, sustaining pedal, and janissary stop.
The modern piano has retained only the soft pedal, which shifts the hammer action and softens the sound, as well as the sustaining pedal. With the soft pedal’s shifting mechanism, only two of the three strings are hit: on the fortepiano this not only makes the sound quieter, but also much thinner. When the bassoon pedal is used, a strip of parchment and silk bent into a semicircle is pressed down onto the strings of the bass notes, giving them a buzzing sound like that of a bassoon. With the moderator pedal, a piece of felt or cloth is interposed between the hammer and the strings, dampening the articulation and the sound. This dampening effect is more extensive on the fortepiano, since its strings are much thinner compared with those of a modern piano, so have a considerably briefer duration of sound. A fortepiano of this period is deliberately designed not to have tonal consistency over the whole range of the keyboard, but instead has different registers in its bass, middle and upper ranges. The relatively thin bass strings make for a more distinctly transparent sound, which averts the danger of drowning out by the notes of the upper register.
Conrad Graf was one of the leaders of the more than one hundred piano makers operating in Vienna in Beethoven’s day. He knew Beethoven personally, and in 1826 lent him an instrument that had a full four strings to a note (today it forms part of the display at the Beethoven House in Bonn). It also had a thin wooden canopy over the mechanism, in appearance rather like a prompter’s box, intended to amplify the sound, and specially constructed for Beethoven, who was by now profoundly deaf. Graf also possessed the autograph manuscript of Beethoven’s Piano Sonata in E minor, Op. 90."

[MickyD]

None sound like any pub piano I have encountered. The Dulcken I was just listening to has a fairly mellow sound, compared to, say, the Graf copy. I will try and characterise each of them as I get to re-listen. However, I have temporarily mislaid the Newman (copy of English Clementi, 18250 so that may take quite a while.

As a long-standing fan of early pianos, I wouldn't describe any of them as sounding like pub pianos, either.

Nothing like this (of which I do actually admit to being rather fond, having played it non-stop in my childhood!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0SZftatIA