BaL 7.01.23 - Mahler: Symphony no. 6 in A minor

[richardfinegold]

This is live on the St. Laurent Studio label, was available at norpete.com but that site seems to have gone wrong now. I never heard this so rfg can comment further, but to judge by timings (22'22/22'39) Karajan certainly takes the repeat here, so are the accusers above so sure that the DG repeat (timings very similar) is pasted in, or is this just hearsay? As Osborne records, Karajan had an almost supernatural inner metronome. I'll listen to the DG one (which I bought on its LP release and on CD) later anyway.... I'd be very surprised if Karajan would consider such a thing.

I'm certainly with David Matthews (and Alistair Hinton) on scherzo-2nd; and restoring the 3rd hammer blow - of course one should. Of the many 6ths I've heard, I've not known many conductors to omit the repeat in (i). The best recordings preceding HvK - NYPO/Bernstein, Haitink and Solti, all took it; as did Horenstein in Stockholm. Kondrashin omitted it, but I could forgive him due to the blazing intensity of his Leningrad Phil recording. (I find the SWR one less compelling).

(Barbirolli also omits it with the Philharmonia of course, but given his uniquely idiosyncratic tempi, one can see why! And it certainly works for him.....but a perhaps unique controversy about the movement order on that recording: originally scherzo-andante, this was changed to andante - scherzo..... for the 1996 reissue. Apparently on the basis that the conductor more often chose this approach live....a reissue best forgotten, then).

Thanks for alerting me that the Norpete site is under construction. They still seem to be issuing releases, as Fanfare reviews a bunch every issue. Hopefully they are still in business. Their site needed an overhaul. AFAIK, Karajan takes the repeat.

[Petrushka]

Thanks for alerting me that the Norpete site is under construction. They still seem to be issuing releases, as Fanfare reviews a bunch every issue. Hopefully they are still in business. Their site needed an overhaul.

See this from Lebrecht's site: https://slippedisc.com/2022/12/ameri...il-order-firm/

[richardfinegold]

See this from Lebrecht's site: https://slippedisc.com/2022/12/ameri...il-order-firm/

Well, thanks for that. Damn. I had my eye on several items that I now wish that I had ordered
Addendum-Good news. The recordings that were of most value on the Norpete site were remastered (Usually good FM broadcasts) by a French Canadian whose last name is St Laurent (not to be confused with the fashion designer). He has his own site , called St Laurent Studio, and the CDs can be purchased from there (I hope).

[ahinton]

a composer of David Matthews' microscopic stature

Was that really necessary? And on what specific grounds? - i.e. with what parameters would you seek to measure such stature?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Which Boulez? I only know of two - Vienna Philharmonic and the Staatskapelle Berlin - and both have the Scherzo first.

In which case I must’ve got it wrong. I’ll check.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Which Boulez? I only know of two - Vienna Philharmonic and the Staatskapelle Berlin - and both have the Scherzo first.

Having checked the VPO/ Boulez in the DG Wiener Philharmoniker Symphony Edition, I find that the CD documentation was wrong. The Scherzo does indeed some before the Andante moderato, but the sleeve says otherwise.[/QUOTE]

[Bryn]

Having checked the VPO/ Boulez in the DG Wiener Philharmoniker Symphony Edition, I find that the CD documentation was wrong. The Scherzo does indeed [c]ome before the Andante moderato, but the sleeve says otherwise.

[/QUOTE]

I wonder whether DG took a leaf out f EMI's book and did a 'Barbiroll' on Boulez, switching the order in the edit? Fancy Boulez getting taken in by Ratz's fabrications and abiding by them after they were exposed.

[Barbirollians]

I wonder whether DG took a leaf out f EMI's book and did a 'Barbiroll' on Boulez, switching the order in the edit? Fancy Boulez getting taken in by Ratz's fabrications and abiding by them after they were exposed.[/QUOTE]

Barbirolli was persuaded apparently to go Scherzo- Andante for the EMI recording but the Testament release of a live performance ( it's terrific ) is Andante Scherzo. I have a vague recollection that ES is a Scherzo-Andante man.

[Barbirollians]

I can listen to it both ways and I understand entirely why some people prefer to hear it Scherzo-Andante - the evidence does seem strong though that Mahler wanted it played the other way round and I have to say it makes more sense to me not to have those two relentless movements together.

Favourite recordings of mine are both Barbirollis ( leaving aside the BPO one which is OK but not as good as the NPO recordings) , Horenstein's Stockholm account, the extraordinary live Mitropoulos that was in EMI's Great Conductors series and the Pappano which is thrills and spills aplenty . Bernstein I find impossibly fast no doubt for the reasons RO said in his Interpretations on Record that if you got to know the work from them Barbirolli or Bernstein tend to make it difficult to hear the piece other than at their first movement tempo.

[silvestrione]

Well, thanks for that. Damn. I had my eye on several items that I now wish that I had ordered
Addendum-Good news. The recordings that were of most value on the Norpete site were remastered (Usually good FM broadcasts) by a French Canadian whose last name is St Laurent (not to be confused with the fashion designer). He has his own site , called St Laurent Studio, and the CDs can be purchased from there (I hope).

Alas, no, St Lauren Studio seems to be the same as Norpete, and gets you nowhere at the moment.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Alas, no, St Lauren Studio seems to be the same as Norpete, and gets you nowhere at the moment.

I haven't used the site, but this page indicates they supply CDs (presumably CD-Rs made to order but I'm not sure about that).

https://www.78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=comment_commander

[RichardB]

I've just been listening to Petrenko with the Berliners, recorded in January 2020. He's certainly concerned to give them a more edgy sound than their previous two chief conductors, which I appreciate a great deal. He places the Andante second. Listening to it, I thought actually it's not the ordering that's most important, so much as the way that connections are made between the inner movements, in particular by playing the Andante a bit faster than is often done, and not playing the Scherzo too aggressively. Having said that, the transition from Scherzo to Finale was enough in itself to convince me that in fact Mahler was right to decide on the order used by Petrenko.

On another point of contention, I don't claim to be an expert or an authority on Mahler's music, just someone with a deep emotional/intellectual involvement in it, and so my strong belief that adding back the third hammer-blow that Mahler removed, for reasons I think I can appreciate, and perhaps even understand, is not a good idea, and most conductors seem to be of the same mind, with the prominent exception of Bernstein (but "he would, wouldn't he?"). Anyway, I commend Petrenko's recording to forum members.

[richardfinegold]

I haven't used the site, but this page indicates they supply CDs (presumably CD-Rs made to order but I'm not sure about that).

https://www.78experience.com/welcome...ment_commander

Thats the link that I was refering to. I was about to order last night, but it seems they only take PayPal and I don't have an account at the moment. That was why I hedged and said "I think" one can order from them

[ahinton]

it's not the ordering that's most important, so much as the way that connections are made between the inner movements, in particular by playing the Andante a bit faster than is often done

The connections made between those inner movements are of course important, just as are the transitions from first to second and from third to fourth movements, which is precisely why Mahler's initial intentions convince some listeners including me (and Webern, who twice conducted it in the 1930s with Scherzo first) but obviously not all of them. I still think that it is important to recognise, though, that there is no clear case to be made for Mahler's first change of mind to have been in the symphony's best interests and that no second one back to his original intentions could be considered credible; as a composer is entitled to change his/her mind once, he/she is as entitled to do so on a subsequent occasion. Mahler completed the symphony in 1905 and conducted it just three times, twice in 1906 and once early in 1907; his decision to reverse the middle movements' order was made during rehearsals for the première, but he never conducted the work after 1907.

[jayne lee wilson]

I can listen to it both ways and I understand entirely why some people prefer to hear it Scherzo-Andante - the evidence does seem strong though that Mahler wanted it played the other way round and I have to say it makes more sense to me not to have those two relentless movements together.

Favourite recordings of mine are both Barbirollis ( leaving aside the BPO one which is OK but not as good as the NPO recordings) , Horenstein's Stockholm account, the extraordinary live Mitropoulos that was in EMI's Great Conductors series and the Pappano which is thrills and spills aplenty . Bernstein I find impossibly fast no doubt for the reasons RO said in his Interpretations on Record that if you got to know the work from them Barbirolli or Bernstein tend to make it difficult to hear the piece other than at their first movement tempo.

When I first heard the Barbirolli off library LPs, only knowing (and having played to death) the CSO/Solti, I was stunned at the slower tempi - yet utterly compelled as the performance is so intense; he makes it work. But if the andante had come second after such a slow 1st movement? Well, I wonder.... a powerful reminder that the movement order will affect the way you play all four movements. Do bear this in mind if you experiment using a given recording.

I'd only read of how quick the NY/Bernstein was supposed to be, usually negative comments from Deryck Cooke and others, especially once the Karajan appeared, which seemed to be taken as an ideal tempo for (i).
But when I finally bought the Bernstein, it quickly became and has remained one of my very favourites for the work (especially in the amazing DSD remaster) preferred to his later VPO one, great though that is.

So I feel one can adapt to a chosen tempo (I'm much less flexible about movement order though... can scarcely conceive of it with andante 2nd...). It does as usual depend on the conviction of the individual performers.
(The Klemperer Mahler 7 is surely the ne plus ultra here.... but that's another story....!)

(Timings for (i) NYPO/Bernstein.....BPO(DG)/Karajan.....21'23/22'22...not such a huge disparity, then...nor does it sound so).