BaL 24.12.22 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 9 in D minor

[visualnickmos]

Just one question. If period performances are now all different: Norrington is diffferent from Gardiner who in turn is different from Savall. Which one is authentic?

What does 'authentic' actually mean in the context of a performance? Surely ALL performances are authentic. I guess 'period instruments' is an acquired taste. To some it is nothing more than a performance using instruments that are technically inferior to modern instruments.

[jayne lee wilson]

Phrases are crowding in upon me...


"Better off out of it...
"Don't go there....
"Move slowly away from the thread.....

This old humanoid better switch herself off or a while....

[Alison]

But I'm not sure about the quality of the "insights", which seemed to me verbal rhapsodies rather than analytically-argued perceptions drawn from what we were hearing. Why not (for example) go into how differing speeds of the Turkish March change what the music conveys, socio-politically? Such things do matter.

Rather it seemed to me - and I'm a TS admirer - to be one of those cases where he was opening his mouth before getting his brain in gear.

Excellent summation I feel. The winner didn’t hit the mark for me but I would like to hear the whole performance.

Just listening to the first Chicago/Solti - and much enjoying it.

[silvestrione]

Phrases are crowding in upon me...


"Better off out of it...
"Don't go there....
"Move slowly away from the thread.....

This old humanoid better switch herself off or a while....

Oh, go on, let's see some 'authentic' JLW!

[gradus]

I enjoyed the discussion and thought TS made some interesting thought-provoking points. For me the Furtwangler performances were extraordinary and his ultra-slow speed for the slow movement in the 1942 recording was compelling. I've always disliked super-fast rushes to the finish in the finale so WF's supercharged triumphalist speed was awful not to mention the thought that this took place in front of that audience. I much prefer Klemperer's approach and his audiences.

[Petrushka]

I enjoyed the discussion and thought TS made some interesting thought-provoking points. For me the Furtwangler performances were extraordinary and his ultra-slow speed for the slow movement in the 1942 recording was compelling. I've always disliked super-fast rushes to the finish in the finale so WF's supercharged triumphalist speed was awful not to mention the thought that this took place in front of that audience. I much prefer Klemperer's approach and his audiences.

Just to clear up any confusion about the 1942 Furtwangler performance, I think I'm correct in saying that the film clip featuring WF conducting the LvB 9 in front of Nazi bigwigs took place on April 19 1942, the day before Hitler's 53rd birthday. The performance on the recording is dated as March 22-24 1942.

Perhaps someone else can provide more information?

Of course, it can never be a library choice, but is nevertheless a vital and important document in the interpretive history of the 'Choral'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's as may be, but it's far removed from the notion of BaL, making it one of the worst BaLs I can recall.

Have to disagree. Although TS may be verbose and periphrastic (see he’s got me doing it) the intellectual level of this was way above a normal BAL. It’s right I think not just to look at this work as pure music . He could easily expanded to consider Schiiler and the Enlightenment, the line that leads through that to The Third Reich, the fall of Berlin Wall and the failure , in John Gray’s words, of the Enlightenment project. Beethoven’s Ninth has been co-opted into all this as a sort of increasingly dog- eared calling card. Thankfully it’s such a work of genius it transcends them all. Not to mention its use as the European anthem… but let’s not go there

[visualnickmos]

Have to disagree. Although TS may be verbose and periphrastic (see he’s got me doing it) the intellectual level of this was way above a normal BAL. It’s right I think not just to look at this work as pure music . He could easily expanded to consider Schiiler and the Enlightenment, the line that leads through that to The Third Reich, the fall of Berlin Wall and the failure , in John Gray’s words, of the Enlightenment project. Beethoven’s Ninth has been co-opted into all this as a sort of increasingly dog- eared calling card. Thankfully it’s such a work of genius it transcends them all. Not to mention its use as the European anthem… but let’s not go there

I stand by my contention; the objective of BaL (as I understand it) is to survey a broadish sampling of recordings, and find one (pointless exercise, these days) that is a 'library choice.' Of curse there is a place for historical, intellectual and so on, but that is another programme surely.

The staggeringly meagre number of samples illustrated was pretty dire, considering the huge (deserved) discography this work has to its credit.

[gradus]

I stand by my contention; the objective of BaL (as I understand it) is to survey a broadish sampling of recordings, and find one (pointless exercise, these days) that is a 'library choice.' Of curse there is a place for historical, intellectual and so on, but that is another programme surely.

The staggeringly meagre number of samples illustrated was pretty dire, considering the huge (deserved) discography this work has to its credit.

I agree with your position but given the enormous number of recordings wouldn't it be easier to tell us in advance which ones are under consideration. Plainly we'd still complain about our favourites or celebrated recordings being omitted but that would add an extra level of debate especially if the BAL team was able to include at least one listeners' favourite in the recordings discussed.

[visualnickmos]

I agree with your position but given the enormous number of recordings wouldn't it be easier to tell us in advance which ones are under consideration. Plainly we'd still complain about our favourites or celebrated recordings being omitted but that would add an extra level of debate especially if the BAL team was able to include at least one listeners' favourite in the recordings discussed.

Indeed, which is precisely why there should have been more samples. It seemed as if there were even fewer samples than the average BaL; the endless references to Furtwangler, seemed quite out of place in a BaL. I know some people complain about the omission of their faves, and so on (not an issue that bothers me) but this BaL was particularly narrow.

I go back to one of my earlier comments in another thread, about the relevance or otherwise of a BaL in its current 'one recording fits all' format for the winner, or whatever superlative one chooses.

[Lordgeous]

Disappointing. Was really looking forward to this. A survey not worthy of the piece. Petrenko the chosen one? Ugh! Not for me I'm afraid. I have 5 recordings which will do me just fine 'til something spectacular comes along!

[Gargoyle]

A good first choice I thought. The BPO are playing beautifully these days, a renaissance, perhaps?

Excellent contextualisation (German performance tradition).

Surprised Schmidt-Isserstedt missing from the Furtwängler-Karajan Teutonic hegemony (and also surprised Cluytens not mentioned at all, or was he? I was undertaking some chores while listening so may have missed it).

I shall go hunting on Pristine for some remastered wartime Furtwängler.

Jordi Savall the finest of the moderns, in my opinion (Norrington always having something vital to say, too).

A very good broadcast, I'd say.

[cloughie]

A good first choice I thought. The BPO are playing beautifully these days, a renaissance, perhaps?

Excellent contextualisation (German performance tradition).

Surprised Schmidt-Isserstedt missing from the Furtwängler-Karajan Teutonic hegemony (and also surprised Cluytens not mentioned at all, or was he? I was undertaking some chores while listening so may have missed it).

I shall go hunting on Pristine for some remastered wartime Furtwängler.

Jordi Savall the finest of the moderns, in my opinion (Norrington always having something vital to say, too).

A very good broadcast, I'd say.

Ansermet, E Kleiber and van Otterloo also missing on parade!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've only just got around to listening to the full broadcast. Why can't TS slow down at bit (or perhaps a lot!)? He's so tiring to listen to when he can't keep up with himself, gasping and stuttering, even when much of what he has so say makes sense.

I do wonder how reviewers select their shortlists. Sometimes, I think they either toss a coin, or at best, look through the list, and say "Hmm, that one looks interesting".

[pastoralguy]

I once spoke to a BaL Reviewer who told me that he didn’t listen to every minute of each recording but chose ‘important moments’ of each recording and, if the important bits were good then he would listen to the full performance.