BaL 8.10.22 - Bach: St Matthew Passion

[gurnemanz]

I'm grateful for the BaL recommendation because I sat down and listened to the winner on Spotify and had a great experience. I've checked Presto for a possible purchase - not sure yet - but was interested to see they include a quote from a Sunday Times review stating:

"After recording all of Bach’s choral works, Suzuki’s Bach is a byword for quality. He also has native German speakers, Benjamin Bruns and Christian Immler, in the leading “roles”...."

I do know what is meant. Having a native speaker Evangelist is obviously not essential, but I am a German speaker - not native, but studied it, lived there for five years - and for me idiomatic rendition of German text does make a difference, especially in this case, where there is a large amount of it and the Evangelist's prose narration in the recitative is integral to the whole experience. This authenticity depends not just on good diction but also on the kind of phonetics, intonation and speech rhythm which non-native-speakers cannot usually be expected to achieve.

I have memories of sitting in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig over 40 years ago and hearing the Evangelist of Peter Schreier, surely one of the best. I also love Karl Erb in early recordings.

[MickyD]

I have yet to get round to listening, but did any of the older HIPP recordings get a mention - for example Harnoncourt or Leonhardt?

[Mal]

Harnoncourt was considered at some length, although at even greater length in the 2014 programme. I don't think Leonhardt was mentioned in either programme.

[duncan]

I have the Suzuki 1999, Herrewege 1999, Gardiner, McCreesh (OVPP), Richter, and a version with my other half singing. I reach for one of the first two most frequently without being able to put a finger on why, they just seem overall the most satisfying. Looking forward to hearing some other examples.

Anyone know both the 2019 and 1999 Suzukis and care to offer a comparison? From the excerpts of the 2019 played this morning, the overall conception sounds pretty similar.

[smittims]

Thanks, Lordgeous. George Malcolm also remembered

'Vy are you making a tchrill ven Bach is not writing one?... The kindly do not do so'.

[BBMmk2]

Ah, I didn’t know that Paul McCreesh recorded this.

[Lordgeous]

Thanks, Lordgeous. George Malcolm also remembered

'Vy are you making a tchrill ven Bach is not writing one?... The kindly do not do so'.

Haha! Thanks. Didn't know that one!

[ardcarp]

Peter Schreier, surely one of the best

[RichardB]

'Vy are you making a tchrill ven Bach is not writing one?... The kindly do not do so'.

Do you think Klemperer just had no idea about ornamentation in Baroque music? He did after all perform quite a lot of Bach (if very little else from the first half of the 18th century) so I guess he either just wasn't interested or thought leaving it out was an improvement. Of course he was a creature of his time, but really those who decry HIPP as arrogant or might think a little about the attitude implicit in such comments!

[smittims]

'creature of his time' is the key here, I think. He had affinity with the new, clean, objective, post-1918 view of Bach, a reaction against the richer slower previous style (e.g. Mengelberg). This clean sweep involved what he called 'unadorned' notes. I'm putting words into his mouth here but I think he believed the music was revealed more profoundly without ornamentation. He was among th first to use a small choir, a harpsichord in Brandenburg 5 and a flute in the Benedictus, so I think we need to remember that there was no Harnoncourt or Rifkin for comparison. Walter Gieseking is another example of what was then a new approach to Bach.

I'm reminded of his reaction to a peformence of the B minor suite by Furtwangler with what Klemperer calls the 'coda' to the first movement cut. Paul Hindemith had also been there and when K asked him what he thought he said 'Oh, Furtwangler doesn't understand Bach at all'.

Klemperer's 1954 Columbia recordings of the suites were praised as 'noble, painstaking, exhilarating and full of musical insight' in The Record Guide, which gave them a star (there were only two stars in their system); his 1968 HMV recordings , on the other hand , which are very similar, wre execrated in The Gramophone by comparison with the Dart/Marriner Argo recording which appeared simultaneously. The (forgotten) reviewer said 'I never want to hear Bach played like this again'.

Times change. Nowadays I find Klemperer, Dart, and Hogwood equally satisfying.

[Bryn]

'creature of his time' is the key here, I think. He had affinity with the new, clean, objective, post-1918 view of Bach, a reaction against the richer slower previous style (e.g. Mengelberg). This clean sweep involved what he called 'unadorned' notes. I'm putting words into his mouth here but I think he believed the music was revealed more profoundly without ornamentation. He was among th first to use a small choir, a harpsichord in Brandenburg 5 and a flute in the Benedictus, so I think we need to remember that there was no Harnoncourt or Rifkin for comparison. Walter Gieseking is another example of what was then a new approach to Bach.

I'm reminded of his reaction to a peformence of the B minor suite by Furtwangler with what Klemperer calls the 'coda' to the first movement cut. Paul Hindemith had also been there and when K asked him what he thought he said 'Oh, Furtwangler doesn't understand Bach at all'.

Klemperer's 1954 Columbia recordings of the suites were praised as 'noble, painstaking, exhilarating and full of musical insight' in The Record Guide, which gave them a star (there were only two stars in their system); his 1968 HMV recordings , on the other hand , which are very similar, wre execrated in The Gramophone by comparison with the Dart/Marriner Argo recording which appeared simultaneously. The (forgotten) reviewer said 'I never want to hear Bach played like this again'.

Times change. Nowadays I find Klemperer, Dart, and Hogwood equally satisfying.

When it comes to conductors such as Klemperer, though they did not have the benefit of modern investigations of historical performance practices to draw upon, what continues to impress is, I find, the essential musicality of the performances they molded. Just as I balk at the blatant dismissal of the tempi called for by Beethoven in performances by the likes of Klemperer, Glenn Gould, etc., I am bowled over by the end results. They may not reproduce what the composer had in mind but the performances have musical delights of their own to offer.

[Mal]

Another highly praised performance was Philippe Herreweghe, Collegium Vocale Gent. I thought Andreas Scholl was very impressive in 'erbarme dich':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHy41BrmbH0

[Mal]

Clearly Klemperer/Munchinger/Richter weren't going to get a look-in from this reviewer. It was exclusively for those in the current fashion-slot.

Richter is awe inspiring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csRNPEpgmiY

[gurnemanz]

Richter is awe inspiring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csRNPEpgmiY

Thanks so much for this link. Only dipped in so far., but it deserves and will receive my full attention at some point. A dapper-looking Peter Schreier exemplary as Evangelist.

[Joseph K]

I've just finished listening to the Dunedin Consort/Butt. Of course it's really great, I really like the oboes for example, but on Thursday I will have finished listening to the Kuijken (a disk a day) so I shall compare them then.