BaL 8.10.22 - Bach: St Matthew Passion

[Bryn]

From some 12 years ago:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/OVPPControversy.pdf

[duncan]

Does anyone listen to the whole performance every time (or more than once...)? I started out with good intentions, but admit to skipping the evangelist by the second CD.

Frequently!

I have the Suzuki 1999, Herrewege 1999, Gardiner, McCreesh (OVPP), Richter, and a version with my other half singing. I reach for one of the first two most frequently without being able to put a finger on why, they just seem overall the most satisfying. Looking forward to hearing some other examples.

[silvestrione]

From some 12 years ago:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articl...ontroversy.pdf

Really illuminating, thanks. As it happens, I thought Thomas Braatz's very unsympathetic characterisation of Parrott's tone and manner not borne out by the quotation he provides. But clearly, yes, the controversy cannot be resolved from currently available evidence.

[RichardB]

From some 12 years ago

I read that at the time, and wondered why its author put so much emphasis on Parrott's supposedly ad hominem attacks on Glöckner and others, but of course the reason is that Braatz has already made up his mind which side of the fence he sits on. Note that he refers to the lack of "new" evidence adduced by Parrott in his response to Glöckner, while leaving out of consideration a large part of the evidence amassed by both Rifkin and Parrott in the 1990s. Reading the article on its own, it might seem that the evidence is much less conclusive than it actually is. To get a truly balanced view you would have to look at Rifkin's original essay and (most importantly) Parrott's book, as well as his subsequent articles, and those on the opposing side by Glöckner and Koopman, which are simply not on the same level of scholarship as Parrott's (making the latter's impatience rather understandable). If you do all that and come back still cleaving to the multiple-voices hypothesis I would be surprised! And I speak as someone who resisted Rifkin and Parrott's arguments quite strongly for some time, before realising that all the "arguments" I had against them basically began with "But surely..."

Anyway, quite apart from what scholarship has to say, nowadays when I hear Bach's cantatas, oratorios and passions performed by choirs, I find the structural inconsistency (especially in the cantatas) and lack of transparency rather bothersome. In the end the most important criterion comes from the music itself. Are the vocal parts in the opening movements of cantatas markedly different from those in the succeeding arias? Assuming single players for most or all of the instrumental parts as well, is there an imbalance between voices and instruments in those opening movements? Is the message of the words compromised in any way? I would say no to all of these - all other things being equal, the OVPP approach just makes more musical sense as far as I'm concerned.

And note also that this Thomas Braatz is neither a performer or a musicologist as far as I can find out, and hasn't published anything in peer-reviewed journals, so one might wish to bear that in mind as well.

[Bryn]

. . . But clearly, yes, the controversy cannot be resolved from currently available evidence.

But that item is some 12 years old. I linked to it so that an alternative argument to the OVPP approach be included. My own view chimes more closely with that expressed by Richard B, except that I took to the Rifkin recording of the Mass in b minor like a duck to water, though I later found Robert King's recording on Hyperion mitigating somewhat my feelings regarding OVPP. His argument, from 1997, can be found on paged 11 and 12 of https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/22051-B.pdf

[silvestrione]

But that item is some 12 years old. I linked to it so that an alternative argument to the OVPP approach be included. My own view chimes more closely with that expressed by Richard B, except that I took to the Rifkin recording of the Mass in b minor like a duck to water, though I later found Robert King's recording on Hyperion mitigating somewhat my feelings regarding OVPP. His argument, from 1997, can be found on paged 11 and 12 of https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/22051-B.pdf

Thanks, yes, that looks a better statement of the other view. And thanks to Richard for his detailed reply, which is certainly making me think!

[Wolfram]

I wouldn't begin to pretend that I have the knowledge or understanding of the scholarship that others here have to join in this debate. But two things strike me as interesting at least. One is the memory of standing in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig as a tourist and wondering how one voice per part actually worked in that big space, especially when trying to communicate the message of the Passion to the large congregation that would have been crowded in there at Easter. And secondly, aren't there depictions from the Renaissance of choral performers standing in groups of three or four around a single part sheet?

I think the argument has almost gone on too long now. It will never be resolved to everyones' satisfaction, unless by chance some new evidence should turn up. I think there must be room for both approaches. If a performance is delivered with honest conviction and musicality then it has a right to be respected and heard, regardless of the side of the debate it's informed by. I find that the four recordings of the Matthew Passion that I listen to most often these days are Gardiner, 2nd recording, for its drama and superb choral contribution, Suzuki, again his 2nd recording, for his moving sense of devotion, Butt for an intimately expressive performance that renders OVPP completely convincing, and finally McCreesh for the sheer quality of the voices he has.

[RichardB]

One is the memory of standing in the Thomaskirche in Leipzig as a tourist and wondering how one voice per part actually worked in that big space

By the same token, though, the arias and recitatives are by definition one voice per part, so their sound must have been acceptable.

aren't there depictions from the Renaissance of choral performers standing in groups of three or four around a single part sheet?

Yes, but that doesn't tell us anything about Bach's performances. The iconographic evidence from Bach's time doesn't show such practices. Parrott: "The copies used by Bach's concertists bear no signs of being shared, and actually give strong indications that they were not. Similarly, a careful study of the 800 or so Telemann cantatas at Frankfurt am Main concludes 'that only one singer sang from each part, and that concertists and ripienists did not share parts.' If this is so, then why are there so few ripieno copies amongst Bach's own performance material? Of almost 150 extant sets, just 10 include parts for ripienists." ("Vocal Ripienists and Bach's Mass in B Minor", in Parrott, Composers' Intentions, 2015, p. 318-319)

If musicology were a science, the evidence for OVPP in Bach's performances would surely have caused the entire scholarly community to change their minds by now, but unfortunately there are too many people around with vested interests in the "traditional" way of doing things. Note for example that JEG in his (excellent) book on Bach is more or less silent on this issue - "the way Bach responds to Luther’s evocation of a many-voiced crowd in the middle verse suggest more than one voice per part. Its challenges are also technically more easily manageable with several per line. Of course not everyone agrees.” (Bach: Music in the Castle of Heaven, p. 270) I would say the "debate" is pretty much settled. Of course this isn't intended to mean that there are ways in which Bach's vocal ensemble music "should" or "shouldn't" be performed!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One example of the OVPP discussion springs to mind in Cantata 140 - Wachet auf.

“Zion hört die Wächter singen” has a tenor line to which most conductors allocate to the full tenor section. Yes even Karl Richter treats this as a solo item. Both work well.

[Wolfram]

Of course this isn't intended to mean that there are ways in which Bach's vocal ensemble music "should" or "shouldn't" be performed!

Of course, otherwise nobody would play the Goldberg Variations on the piano.

It’s very difficult to hear things separate from the performing tradition that one grows up with. OVPP makes Bach’s church music a very different animal. Trying to imagine four or eight voices delivering what you expect to hear as a chorus in the space of the Thomaskirche is a challenge, because it’s not just about the sound per se, but because it changes the whole ethos of the piece itself. Having grappled with this for some time, listening now to the expressive beauty of performances such as those by Butt or McCreesh, dare I say, makes the experience more human, more intimate and more personal. And that must sit more comfortably with the Lutheran view.

[RichardB]

It’s very difficult to hear things separate from the performing tradition that one grows up with.

Indeed. But there's something exciting about it too, don't you think? Especially now that there are more recordings to choose from (also of the cantatas). Which reminds me I've never heard the McCreesh recording of the work under discussion, that's something to put right soon.

[Bryn]

Indeed. But there's something exciting about it too, don't you think? Especially now that there are more recordings to choose from (also of the cantatas). Which reminds me I've never heard the McCreesh recording of the work under discussion, that's something to put right soon.

I found that when listening to Zimerman, the LSO, and Rattle in the Beethoven G major Piano Concerto which arrived yesterday. I rarely listen to such works played on modern instruments, these days, but there again, Zimerman makes a point of reminding us that work was written to be played on a Walter instrument of the time and he bears that in mind when playing it on a modern Steinway. Dutt and Kuijken Matthew Passions just delivered from Presto Classical.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oh dear! I never knew that two people in conversation could sound like a football crowd.

[Barbirollians]

Oh dear! I never knew that two people in conversation could sound like a football crowd.

Gushingly over the top all round - thank heavens for the music .

[Ein Heldenleben]

Who cares about the chat? The level of musicianship in these extracts is so high how on earth do you choose between them?