BaL 9.07.22 - Walton: Symphony no. 1

[Barbirollians]

However irritating Andrew and Tom lengthily agreeing with each other might be, I can’t help feeling much of the venom here relates to nothing more than the selection of something other than the Previn - which many feel ought to win even if they haven’t listened to anything much more recent. We had much the same - with the same conductor, as it happens - with the recent Rach 2. I have the CD of the Rattle, coupled with an excellent Belshazzar, and like it a lot. I do also think the Karabits sounded very good indeed - and I wonder how many here would have been aware of it without the prominence given to it this morning. Both Rattle and Karabits as recordings sounded like they were made in a recognisable concert acoustic, unlike the Previn, which sounded very exciting but not terribly realistic.

I don’t have a problem with Tom Service on Music Matters at all but firmly disagree with him about the Previn . What was particularly odd , apart from the fact that the Rattle was not in his five recommended versions when he wrote a long piece about the symphony in 2014 in the Guardian was that Service criticised the Previn for being overly swaggering and then McGregor said it sounded like they weren’t enjoying themselves which seemed to be a contradiction.

[Master Jacques]

I don’t have a problem with Tom Service on Music Matters at all but firmly disagree with him about the Previn . What was particularly odd , apart from the fact that the Rattle was not in his five recommended versions when he wrote a long piece about the symphony in 2014 in the Guardian was that Service criticised the Previn for being overly swaggering and then McGregor said it sounded like they weren’t enjoying themselves which seemed to be a contradiction.

I suppose it's possible that Mr Service only caught up with the Rattle performance for today's BaL, but that does seem a little odd. His baffling remarks about the players "not enjoying themselves" in the last movement - even more bafflingly echoed by his host - not only reflected on the LSO's professionalism, but also gave unnecessary aggravation to the (very many) people who hear that performance differently. This is a comparative review, not a court of law.

Goon525's mention of Edward Seckerson's treatment of another Previn favourite - his Rachmaninov Symphony No.2 for EMI - surely highlights another comparison, as to how rejecting a classic ought to be done: with respect, affection and (ultimately) regret. I don't suppose anyone would have had any beef with a similarly kindly rejection, whether on grounds of recording, interpretation or playing, however the performance might have been "imprinted" in youth.

Interpretation is a broad church, but I'm not convinced that reviewers should be in the business of telling us whether orchestral players are "enjoying themselves" or not. How would he know? To many of us, that performance makes excellent sense of that infamously tricky 4th movement.

A personal note: these days I tend to listen to Walton's 2nd more than the 1st, which I've rather exhausted as a listener. Although the Karabits/Bournemouth CD gave me much pleasure in the 2nd, I found his 1st - without going into boring detail - less convincing. The mellow warmth and orchestral virtuosity of the 2nd seemed to suit him and the orchestra better than the 1st, in which he underplayed the hard-edged, Sibelius-like qualities which loom so large, from that first oboe solo onwards.

[mahlerfan]

However irritating Andrew and Tom lengthily agreeing with each other might be, I can’t help feeling much of the venom here relates to nothing more than the selection of something other than the Previn - which many feel ought to win

Yes, one does rather get a sense that it seems to have touched a raw nerve, so as to speak.

[underthecountertenor]

I think the problem is that Tom Service is regularly dismissed in one line comments without any evidence being produced . I don’t agree with every thing he says . But he’s one of the few voices on Radio who takes classical music seriously and has something to say about it which isn’t bland or half-baked.
I prefer the Karabits to the Rattle and I don’t find the Previn final movement overly “swaggering”.

I agree with this, and would only add that I can generally predict both the one-line comments and their authors as soon as Tom Service’s name appears.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suppose it's possible that Mr Service only caught up with the Rattle performance for today's BaL, but that does seem a little odd. His baffling remarks about the players "not enjoying themselves" in the last movement - even more bafflingly echoed by his host - not only reflected on the LSO's professionalism, but also gave unnecessary aggravation to the (very many) people who hear that performance differently. This is a comparative review, not a court of law.

Goon525's mention of Edward Seckerson's treatment of another Previn favourite - his Rachmaninov Symphony No.2 for EMI - surely highlights another comparison, as to how rejecting a classic ought to be done: with respect, affection and (ultimately) regret. I don't suppose anyone would have had any beef with a similarly kindly rejection, whether on grounds of recording, interpretation or playing, however the performance might have been "imprinted" in youth.

Interpretation is a broad church, but I'm not convinced that reviewers should be in the business of telling us whether orchestral players are "enjoying themselves" or not. How would he know? To many of us, that performance makes excellent sense of that infamously tricky 4th movement.

A personal note: these days I tend to listen to Walton's 2nd more than the 1st, which I've rather exhausted as a listener. Although the Karabits/Bournemouth CD gave me much pleasure in the 2nd, I found his 1st - without going into boring detail - less convincing. The mellow warmth and orchestral virtuosity of the 2nd seemed to suit him and the orchestra better than the 1st, in which he underplayed the hard-edged, Sibelius-like qualities which loom so large, from that first oboe solo onwards.

I’ve seen some very great performances where it is quite clear that the soloist, usually a pianist , is clearly not “enjoying themselves very much.” Talking to an agent , who’s had to literally push performers on stage , it’s clear that enjoying oneself isn’t what it’s about. It was a bizarre comment about a group of musicians who produced , for the time , an outstandingly virtuosic performance of a tricky piece. It is complete sentimentality to except anyone to “enjoy themselves” whilst doing a job whether it’s fixing your central heating or painting the Sistine Chapel.

[Master Jacques]

It is complete sentimentality to expect anyone to “enjoy themselves” whilst doing a job whether it’s fixing your central heating or painting the Sistine Chapel.

Although this is straying a little off topic, I have to add a "hear, hear!" to your comment. Artists - or indeed plumbers - who were "enjoying themselves" would - simply and brutally - not be paying enough attention to the multitude of things they need to have in mind at any given moment; and the idea that a whole orchestra might be communally indulging themselves - or here, its reverse! - while busy in a recording studio, trying to play all the right notes in something like the right order, is oddly fanciful.

But then, that's the kind of trap (like loose talk about a director's "interpretation" of a play) that critics often tumble into.

[mathias broucek]

Huh?

I have around 15 recordings of Walton 1. A few years ago a friend and I went through them all and the Previn was in a class of its own... Which doesn't mean it's the only choice but it sounds like it was rather dismissed yesterday. I heard the Rattle recently and it's a decent performance but doesn't have the last ounce of intensity. I wonder if he'd do it better now - his Proms Belshazzar in 2019 2+was terrific (and better than his EMI recording of it).

Sounds like I need to search out the Karabits..

[Ein Heldenleben]

Although this is straying a little off topic, I have to add a "hear, hear!" to your comment. Artists - or indeed plumbers - who were "enjoying themselves" would - simply and brutally - not be paying enough attention to the multitude of things they need to have in mind at any given moment; and the idea that a whole orchestra might be communally indulging themselves - or here, its reverse! - while busy in a recording studio, trying to play all the right notes in something like the right order, is oddly fanciful.

But then, that's the kind of trap (like loose talk about a director's "interpretation" of a play) that critics often tumble into.

Apologies for off topic but in the brief period I worked in music recording it was nearly always when I started “enjoying” the music that I lost focus and made a mistake .That’s one reason I got out of it - listening to details and thinking of the next task completely cut across the music. Even now I can’t listen to a radio drama without seeing all the artifice behind it.
However I recognise that in music performance there must be a sweet spot where the performer is clearly massively enjoying it. Errol Garner would be my standout example whereas Bill Evans often looked like he was suffering for his art

[Master Jacques]

Apologies for off topic but in the brief period I worked in music recording it was nearly always when I started “enjoying” the music that I lost focus and made a mistake .That’s one reason I got out of it - listening to details and thinking of the next task completely cut across the music. Even now I can’t listen to a radio drama without seeing all the artifice behind it.
However I recognise that in music performance there must be a sweet spot where the performer is clearly massively enjoying it. Errol Garner would be my standout example whereas Bill Evans often looked like he was suffering for his art

'Sweet spot' - or 'in the zone' - are good ways of putting it, but quite a different feeling from "enjoying yourself", which is harmful in precisely the ways you outline.

A conductor's job (beyond watching out for wrong notes, phrasing, balance and the other multitude of technical problems besetting performance - it's not easy!) rarely if ever extends - at least consciously - to what critics like to isolate as "interpretation". What comes across is of course affected by personal preferences, but imagine if Andre Previn (for example) had sat down in advance to work out what "interpretation" he wanted to impose on Walton's 1st in those memorable sessions with the LSO. Stuff like that usually goes on in the heads of critics, not artists.

That's perhaps why some of us had a (mild) objection to Mr Service's division of the work's performances into "romantic", "aware of the French influences" (I'm collapsing and paraphrasing there) and the rest of it. Such arbitrary divisions are useful to him as random structures to base his talk around, of course, but they were certainly not going on in the minds of the many excellent conductors who've tackled the work.

[Ein Heldenleben]

'Sweet spot' - or 'in the zone' - are good ways of putting it, but quite a different feeling from "enjoying yourself", which is harmful in precisely the ways you outline.

A conductor's job (beyond watching out for wrong notes, phrasing, balance and the other multitude of technical problems besetting performance - it's not easy!) rarely if ever extends - at least consciously - to what critics like to isolate as "interpretation". What comes across is of course affected by personal preferences, but imagine if Andre Previn (for example) had sat down in advance to work out what "interpretation" he wanted to impose on Walton's 1st in those memorable sessions with the LSO. Stuff like that usually goes on in the heads of critics, not artists.

That's perhaps why some of us had a (mild) objection to Mr Service's division of the work's performances into "romantic", "aware of the French influences" (I'm collapsing and paraphrasing there) and the rest of it. Such arbitrary divisions are useful to him as random structures to base his talk around, of course, but they were certainly not going on in the minds of the many excellent conductors who've tackled the work.

I get the impression that some conductors meticulously prepare through score marking and rehearsal and don’t like adjusting the “interpretation “ in performance . Others , like Beecham, winged it a lot . I think Previn was a very careful preparer - a keen score studier but he was prepared to go with the flow a bit . Not least on the celebrated occasion when , on tour in the US , the orchestra weren’t quite concentrating , and only the front four string desks played the opening bar of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony . They concentrated like mad after that….

[Master Jacques]

I get the impression that some conductors meticulously prepare through score marking and rehearsal and don’t like adjusting the “interpretation “ in performance . Others , like Beecham, winged it a lot . I think Previn was a very careful preparer - a keen score studier but he was prepared to go with the flow a bit . Not least on the celebrated occasion when , on tour in the US , the orchestra weren’t quite concentrating , and only the front four string desks played the opening bar of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony . They concentrated like mad after that….

Fascinating tales! As an excellent performer himself, Previn knew how to "go with the flow" outstandingly well - I'm thinking about how he encourages the slow movement of the Walton to unfold from the plaintively imaginative solo of the LSO's first flute (not sure who it was) rather than constraining his player precisely to hit the bar lines. (He did the same with Jack Brymer's clarinet in the slow movement of the Rachmaninov 2nd.) Selfless conducting, and ensuring needlepoint concentration from everyone, as they respond to the mood the soloist creates.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Fascinating tales! As an excellent performer himself, Previn knew how to "go with the flow" outstandingly well - I'm thinking about how he encourages the slow movement of the Walton to unfold from the plaintively imaginative solo of the LSO's first flute (not sure who it was) rather than constraining his player precisely to hit the bar lines. (He did the same with Jack Brymer's clarinet in the slow movement of the Rachmaninov 2nd.) Selfless conducting, and ensuring needlepoint concentration from everyone, as they respond to the mood the soloist creates.

The source for the Beethoven 5 story is Previn himself in TV interview. He also demonstrated once that the way round the tricky string opening to Strauss’s Don Juan is to hop onto the podium and give the downbeat whilst the audience is still clapping the conductor’s arrival. I agree that his ability to go with the flow and his excellence as an accompanist was partly because of his experience as a jazz pianist. He also once said that one of the most difficult conducting jobs was the Sibelius Violin Concerto. A really remarkable all round musician.

[Alison]

I’m hoping John Wilson records the symphony. His was a terrific performance with the BBCPO a year or two back.

[Bryn]

I’m hoping John Wilson records the symphony. His was a terrific performance with the BBCPO a year or two back.

Hmm, not a conductor whose work I find my cup of tea.

[cloughie]

I’m hoping John Wilson records the symphony. His was a terrific performance with the BBCPO a year or two back.

Yes, Alison, he seems tobe an underrated gem! I’m pleased to see I’m not the only one hereabouts that appreciates JW!