BaL 9.07.22 - Walton: Symphony no. 1

[HighlandDougie]

You put it very neatly.

Mr Service needs a break, I think: he's become predictable, and if there is an iconic recording to diss he makes sure he disses it, even where (as here) for anyone with ears to hear, the superiority of that recording is palpable. The Previn/LSO disc hasn't been hailed as one of the great recordings for nothing, as even the excerpts he trashed showed quite plainly. It's superior music making, way above the perfectly decent, workmanlike job Rattle does with the work.

In this case, Service's crass misunderstanding of the work stemmed from his dismissal of *what the composer himself said about it*, with the result that he preferred performances determined to emote (or gush) rather than those which simply present the work cleanly and clearly. He was much too concerned to align the piece with 'European Tradition' (whatever that is), Shostakovich et al. to pinpoint what we might be listening for.

I used to think Service's enthusiasm was a breath of fresh air, but these days his flowery didacticism sounds a bit modish, and his judgement is suspect. Oh dear.

Not sure quite why I should be sticking up for TS but he certainly didn't "trash" the 1966 Previn!

[Lordgeous]

I've ordered the Karabits, which I much liked.

Likewise!

[Keraulophone]

I'm no great fan of Tom Service but one somehow knew, irrespective of what he actually said, that, frankly, the knives would be out, given the usual animus against him on this forum.

I have usually been interested in what Tom Service writes or has to say, but I really don’t wish to listen to him gabbling on the radio, especially in a double-act with you-know-who. Surely his delivery ought to disqualify him as a radio broadcaster, or is it ‘anything goes’ for today’s inclusive producers?

[Master Jacques]

I'm no great fan of Tom Service but one somehow knew, irrespective of what he actually said, that, frankly, the knives would be out, given the usual animus against him on this forum. And the 1966 Previn is indeed wonderful (and still sounds it) but it was good to hear other, possibly less frenetic versions. I've ordered the Karabits, which I much liked.

I am not sure that's fair to forum members, who (in my experience reading comments) are adept at separating the message from the messenger. Presenters start to lose goodwill when their comments fall into predictable patterns - and that, rather than Forumite reaction, was what was predictable here.

Given his airy dismissal of the composer's own views on what makes a performance of the Symphony tick, and his own (rather trivialised) notion of it as some sort of obscure psycho-drama, or 'coded' work in the Shostakovich mould, it's hard to see how this particular BaL actually illuminated the work itself.

It's no sort of reading which sees the climax of the 1st movement as "terrifying" (somehow presaging the war?) when it's so cleanly and thrillingly exhilarating, simply as music. That's the positive glory he overlooked in the Previn/LSO classic.

This is the kind of "overthink" I at least am criticising, not Mr Service personally. I wish him well, but am increasingly concerned about the flowery image his notions project for 'classical music' in the wider world. He runs the risk of making it sound elitist and pretentious, rather than a joy for everyone.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I am not sure that's fair to forum members, who (in my experience reading comments) are adept at separating the message from the messenger. Presenters start to lose goodwill when their comments fall into predictable patterns - and that, rather than Forumite reaction, was what was predictable here.

Given his airy dismissal of the composer's own views on what makes a performance of the Symphony tick, and his own (rather trivialised) notion of it as some sort of obscure psycho-drama, or 'coded' work in the Shostakovich mould, it's hard to see how this particular BaL actually illuminated the work itself.

It's no sort of reading which sees the climax of the 1st movement as "terrifying" (somehow presaging the war?) when it's so cleanly and thrillingly exhilarating, simply as music. That's the positive glory he overlooked in the Previn/LSO classic.

That's the kind of "overthink" I at least am criticising, not Mr Service personally. I wish him well, but am increasingly concerned about the flowery image his notions project for 'classical music' in the wider world. He runs the risk of making it sound elitist and pretentious, rather than a joy for everyone.

I think the problem is that Tom Service is regularly dismissed in one line comments without any evidence being produced . I don’t agree with every thing he says . But he’s one of the few voices on Radio who takes classical music seriously and has something to say about it which isn’t bland or half-baked.
I prefer the Karabits to the Rattle and I don’t find the Previn final movement overly “swaggering”.

[BBMmk2]

I think the problem is that Tom Service is regularly dismissed in one line comments without any evidence being produced . I don’t agree with every thing he says . But he’s one of the few voices on Radio who takes classical music seriously and has something to say about it which isn’t bland or half-baked.
I prefer the Karabits to the Rattle and I don’t find the Previn final movement overly “swaggering”.

Quite agree with you, re Walton/Karabits, but my all time favourite is Previn’s.

[Master Jacques]

I think the problem is that Tom Service is regularly dismissed in one line comments without any evidence being produced . I don’t agree with every thing he says . But he’s one of the few voices on Radio who takes classical music seriously and has something to say about it which isn’t bland or half-baked.
I prefer the Karabits to the Rattle and I don’t find the Previn final movement overly “swaggering”.

"Swaggering" (added to the oddly woke dismissal of "Crown Imperial mode") was certainly one of the more questionable adjectives Mr Service chose this morning. Your comment on one-line dismissals is well taken, and I agree wholeheartedly; but I don't read much of that Twitter style in this particular debate. It's what he said, rather than who he is, which seems the central issue for most posters here.

[Ein Heldenleben]

"Swaggering" (added to the oddly woke dismissal of "Crown Imperial mode") was certainly one of the more questionable adjectives Mr Service chose this morning. Your comment on one-line dismissals is well taken, and I agree wholeheartedly; but I don't read much of that Twitter style in this particular debate. It's what he said, rather than who he is, which seems the central issue for most posters here.

That final movement does sound as if it could be film music ( I don’t mean that in a disparaging sense) which might play well to Previn’s mastery in this sphere. But unlike A McG and TS I like the way he accents the three note based brass flourishes. Chacun a son goût…

[mahlerfan]

I found the BaL fascinating and helpful in better understanding a work that has never completely clicked with me - I love it, but something small about it eludes me. One thing, I'd fallen foul of the often expressed view that the finale was an afterthought. Thanks to TS's simple and short comments on the matter, I'm free to revisit the work with a different perception. He also put into words what I think is the reason that I've never loved the Previn in the way that some people do.

A further look on my shelves shows I have 2 Rattle CDs of the work, one with Lynn Harrell in the 'cello concerto and the other with Belshazzar's Feast (and another Handley, on Silverline, too). I really don't remember the Rattle performance as being anything special. Slatkin, who may not have got a mention, and MacKerras will probably remain as my gotos.

Like others, I was quite taken by the Karabits.

[Goon525]

However irritating Andrew and Tom lengthily agreeing with each other might be, I can’t help feeling much of the venom here relates to nothing more than the selection of something other than the Previn - which many feel ought to win even if they haven’t listened to anything much more recent. We had much the same - with the same conductor, as it happens - with the recent Rach 2. I have the CD of the Rattle, coupled with an excellent Belshazzar, and like it a lot. I do also think the Karabits sounded very good indeed - and I wonder how many here would have been aware of it without the prominence given to it this morning. Both Rattle and Karabits as recordings sounded like they were made in a recognisable concert acoustic, unlike the Previn, which sounded very exciting but not terribly realistic.

[Pianoman]

I've had the Previn for many years (like most) so it is very much the 'reference' version for me. The Karabits I've had for a year or so, and to me it represents the prefect alternative. It's as exciting as the Previn, and is better recorded, which makes it immediately appealing. It's also better played in some cases - I can never quite get over the horn split in Previn's otherwise blistering scherzo; they obviously felt it shouldn't be re-taken (quite rightly). I also have the Rattle but hardly ever play it, which must say something.

[gradus]

Unfortunately I missed some of the discussion but I enjoyed what I heard and Tom's enthusiasm for the work enthused me too, even for the last movement which made more sense to me after the discussion.

[Master Jacques]

I found the BaL fascinating and helpful in better understanding a work that has never completely clicked with me - I love it, but something small about it eludes me. One thing, I'd fallen foul of the often expressed view that the finale was an afterthought. Thanks to TS's simple and short comments on the matter, I'm free to revisit the work with a different perception.

He set up an Aunt Sally. I have never come across any analysis or notes on the symphony, or anything in books on Walton, which suggests that the last movement was in any sense an "afterthought".

Let's be clear (as Tom Service wasn't, doubtless for reasons of time). Having written three of four movements, the composer got stuck and didn't know how to finish it. He made the unusual decision to allow performance of the first three movements, while making it clear that there would - eventually - be a finale. He finally got through the block by turning to partly fugal solutions. And then the complete symphony - always planned to have four movements - was performed.

Never mind whether the classic Previn was given short shrift this morning - it can perfectly well speak for itself. More peculiar was the total absence of reference to the Handley performance mentioned by mahlerfan, which is (as they say) "a contender".

[HighlandDougie]

As an adjunct to MJ's surely correct skewering of the idea that it was in some way, "an afterthought" and the many words written about the ending of one relationship - his first - and the start of another, this piece by Ted Greenfield from the Grauniad is interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2002/jan/25/shopping.artsfeatures

[ardcarp]

Service sounds as though he is on Speed

He's even worse when not on BAL

Is there any other twentieth century symphony whose opening so conspicuously couldn’t be anything other than a symphony? Or one that gives such a prominent ( and wonderful) role to the oboe ?

Totally agree! That oboe solo was a bit less clear in the first (Walton-conducted) excerpt played, but Edward Gardner and the BBCSO...much better recorded of course...was, as you say, wonderful.