BaL 2.07.22 - Beethoven: Missa Solemnis

[Pulcinella]

We seem to have left the Missa Solemnis far, far behind...

Partly because we're trying to help Mario, who's far, far away.


(Bryn beat me to it, in a way!)

[Mario]

You are absolutely right, Pet. My fault entirely...

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

(Come on now, that is slightly clever, no?)

[Cockney Sparrow]

Apologies if it is mentioned above (can't see it, on a quick look), but the full HvK performance is played on Sunday evening's Rec Rev Extra:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0018qtz

Perhaps this is what Mario is listening to, but no doubt there is YTube and of course the likes of Spotify etc . (RR Extra doesn't always play the complete work following a BAL - sometimes extracts.....).

[Pulcinella]

Apologies if it is mentioned above (can't see it, on a quick look), but the full HvK performance is played on Sunday evening's Rec Rev Extra:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0018qtz

Perhaps this is what Mario is listening to, but no doubt there is YTube and of course the likes of Spotify etc . (RR Extra doesn't always play the complete work following a BAL - sometimes extracts.....).

Mentioned in #103; and as you say, in this instance it seems like they DID play the complete work.

[Nick Armstrong]

This edition reminded me a bit of Ted Greenfield, good overview of the recorded history and finding it easy to be complimentary about nearly every version. Most listeners will have felt included and not offended I guess!
For myself I was rather taken by the Solti, would have liked more comment on the later JEG version…

My feelings too. Re the 2012 JEG, the reviewer said she vividly remembered being at the recorded performance “in the Royal Festival Hall” - well, according to the booklet it was recorded in the Barbican Hall…

The 1990 JEG has always been my ‘go to’ recording.

[Mario]

Well, now listened to HvK’s rendition twice.

A bit of a curate’s egg, great in parts, in others, not so.

Why am I sometimes drawn away from the music in Karajan’s performances, and pulled towards an appreciation of his forces’ immaculate execution?

His pianissimi remain breathtaking, but even the entry of the basses in the Benedictus (Andante molto cantabile e non troppo mosso), at bar 114, arguably one of the most sublime moments in all music, simply passed me by. And that magical and quite unique moment in bar 171, when S, A and T (but not the basses) drop a minor third from F down to D in C Maj, then a perfect fourth up to G on the single syllable of DO-mi-ne, here simply goes by, almost unnoticed.

And I don’t know why! Everything is as it should be, but Klemperer and Harnoncourt are so much more reverential, so much more soulful, that it seems the choir themselves are almost in awe of the beauty they themselves are creating. Perhaps they can’t believe what they are singing and here, and elsewhere, Toscanini touches the heart like no other.

Karajan’s Gloria is overwhelming, as it should be.

If only Toscanini could be listened to beyond the sonic restrictions.

Enough from me I think, as I don’t want to overstay one’s welcome.

[antongould]

Well, now listened to HvK’s rendition twice.

A bit of a curate’s egg, great in parts, in others, not so.

Why am I sometimes drawn away from the music in Karajan’s performances, and pulled towards an appreciation of his forces’ immaculate execution?

His pianissimi remain breathtaking, but even the entry of the basses in the Benedictus (Andante molto cantabile e non troppo mosso), at bar 114, arguably one of the most sublime moments in all music, simply passed me by. And that magical and quite unique moment in bar 171, when S, A and T (but not the basses) drop a minor third from F down to D in C Maj, then a perfect fourth up to G on the single syllable of DO-mi-ne, here simply goes by, almost unnoticed.

And I don’t know why! Everything is as it should be, but Klemperer and Harnoncourt are so much more reverential, so much more soulful, that it seems the choir themselves are almost in awe of the beauty they themselves are creating. Perhaps they can’t believe what they are singing and here, and elsewhere, Toscanini touches the heart like no other.

Karajan’s Gloria is overwhelming, as it should be.

If only Toscanini could be listened to beyond the sonic restrictions.

Enough from me I think, as I don’t want to overstay one’s welcome.

To me at least it’s been a joy reading your posts Mario …. enjoy the, IMVVHO, many delights of BBC Sounds ……

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I’ve been listening to the Karajan recording today, having tried the Harnoncourt yesterday. I was rather hoping the HIPP approach would help to overcome what I regard as heavy/thick textures, but I think it’s more to do with Beethoven’s chord spacing, though I’ve yet to confirm that with the score. I much preferred the Karajan, and may well order a copy.

[Mario]

Hi EA!

I notice you’ve referred before to the thick textures in this work.

Could you please point me to a passage so I can go away and analyse?

It might help me improve my Grade 6 Theory! I’m intrigued by your comment on “chord spacing”.

Simple SATB is not enough, no?

I've just realised. I think it may have something to do with Ein Heldenleben's 34 post, yes, about doubling 3rds?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Hi EA!

I notice you’ve referred before to the thick textures in this work.

I’m intrigued by your comment on “chord spacing”.

Simple SATB is not enough, no?

I've just realised. I think it may have something to do with Ein Heldenleben's 34 post, yes, about doubling 3rds?

It’s also about having the 3rd of a chord in the tenor line, very close to the bass root. Beethoven did this more than his contemporaries, so he must have liked the effect.

[Joseph K]

Listening for the first time to this work, the version in this set:



... which features the London Philharmonic Orchestra under Giulini.

[jch48]

Karajan's version was given to me in the 70s. My Dad either took advice in a record shop or made a lucky guess. I loved side 1 of the LP. Side 2 and/or the Santcus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei were not quite as exciting to the young teenage me. When it came to buying on CD I went for JEG and have been satisfied with that. Listening to sunday evening's full performance I found some moments lagged a bit. It remains a favourite work. On a different note please allow amateur choirs to perform the piece to amateur audiences.

[Mandryka]

I used to think that Furtwangler was right to refuse to play this, he was right to think it’s just too much, too hard, it can’t work in the modern world. Herreweghe released a recording of it recently, and that made me rethink slightly and I would recommend Herreweghe’s for listening at home, in a normal sized living room, where you don’t want the massed forces of the Philharmonia Choir sitting next to you on the sofa à la Klemperer. If not, another one which can work for me for home listening was Gielen’s. But you know, you have to be in the mood . . . once a decade maybe . . .

There are loads of old recordings which to me are really just curiosities - incredibly intense music making, but too much, too heavy, too emotional, thank you very much. Horenstein, Jochum, Sylvestri, Clemens Krauss, one of the early Karajans, that Toscanini one with Kipnis (a must hear in the Agnus Dei.) Jochum is fun because it’s almost like a parody of overblown ridiculous pre-Raphelite sentimental 19th century religiosity: a vast moth-eaten musical brocade created to pretend we never die. Actually making a caricature out of it may not be a bad way . . .

Basically, it’s Furtwangler’s rejection for me, though occasionally I waver and listen to one, and regret it.

[cloughie]

Delivered by Royal Mail from Presto this morning Klemperer’s recording of MIssa Solemnis - lovely sound from Soderstrom. The box includes his equally light versions of Bach Mass and St Matthew Passion and Handel’s Messiah. I just love to compare and contrast all styles of performance!
A bargain at £16!

[BBMmk2]

I have Gardiner’s, Harnoncourt’s and Haitink’s(on BR Klassic)