BaL 2.07.22 - Beethoven: Missa Solemnis

[gradus]

I’m listening to the 1953 Toscanini as restored on Pristine. It’s surely listenable. Perhaps you have no tolerance for historical recordings

I'm largely immune to 'atrocious' recorded sound having grown up listening to MW radio! I couldn't care less about Toscanini's poor recorded sound, its the performance that counts and to me that shines through. On a more recent level I listen to Klemperer in this work and if his appeal mystifies you listen to the Gloria from start to finish.
Can't remember the conductor but a recent HIPP recording of the work had the chorus almost whisper the final Gloria imv completing ignoring Beethoven's clear intent.

[Barbirollians]

I'm largely immune to 'atrocious' recorded sound having grown up listening to MW radio! I couldn't care less about Toscanini's poor recorded sound, its the performance that counts and to me that shines through. On a more recent level I listen to Klemperer in this work and if his appeal mystifies you listen to the Gloria from start to finish.
Can't remember the conductor but a recent HIPP recording of the work had the chorus almost whisper the final Gloria imv completing ignoring Beethoven's clear intent.

Kubelik on Orfeo is marvellous.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I am only interested in HIPP versions of this and would probably plump for Suzuki, or just possibly Harnoncourt. How anyone could get pleasure from the atrocious sound of Toscanini recordings is beyond me, whatever the quality of the performance. Surely they can be of historic interest only? At least on this occasion we have a reviewer more likely to be sympathetic to period performance, judging by her day job.

Having “cut my teeth” on my father’s 78 rpm collection, I can soon adjust to the restricted sound of older recordings. Why else would I have splashed out on the 107CD Furtwängler box set?
However, I’ll be interested in hearing samples of HIPP recordings of this work, as they might reveal the work in greater clarity than in my current collection (Davis and Böhm).

[Pianoman]

I'm largely immune to 'atrocious' recorded sound having grown up listening to MW radio! I couldn't care less about Toscanini's poor recorded sound, its the performance that counts and to me that shines through. On a more recent level I listen to Klemperer in this work and if his appeal mystifies you listen to the Gloria from start to finish.
Can't remember the conductor but a recent HIPP recording of the work had the chorus almost whisper the final Gloria imv completing ignoring Beethoven's clear intent.

I think that might be Rene Jacobs' latest, which does have some rather quirky touches but many refreshing and stimulating ideas. The HIPP recordings I like most are Herreweghe 1 and Gardiner 2, though the latter is let down to my ears by James Gilchrist, a singer I admire but is severely stretched in this piece. The Gardiner chorus is tremendous but the acoustic is rather dry. I can happily listen to Klemperer (having grown up with it) and there is a grandeur to the whole thing that might be old-fashioned but is very moving - and his chorus is also superb. Another modern recording I admire is David Zinman, modern instruments but fast speeds - in fact, I think he's the swiftest on record at 66 minutes ! So if you find yourself bored by the longeurs of other versions, he might be your man....

[Pulcinella]

Having “cut my teeth” on my father’s 78 rpm collection, I can soon adjust to the restricted sound of older recordings. Why else would I have splashed out on the 107CD Furtwängler box set?
However, I’ll be interested in hearing samples of HIPP recordings of this work, as they might reveal the work in greater clarity than in my current collection (Davis and Böhm).

At the risk of offending Mario and others, this is a work I simply don't have any feeling for (and I've tried); in an attempt to get away from any overblown grandiosity, I plumped for this version (now nla, it would appear), with the Tallis Chamber Choir and the English Chamber Orchestra, under Jeffrey Tate:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Missa-Solemnis-Vaness/dp/B00000DNMR/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XFO29FUU5V5B&keywords=Beethoven+missa+tate&qid=1655735115&sprefix=beethoven+missa+tate%2Caps%2C65&sr=8-1

I think that it was pretty well received.

I have a copy of the Novello vocal score, bought in Worcester in August 1979, when I heard the piece for the first time, at The Three Choirs Festival there, so will try to get to grips with it one more time.

Mario: I hope you'll still be my friend.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Mario: I hope you'll still be my friend.

I hope we can all be friends, and respect one another's right to think differently from our own musical likes and dislikes.

[Pulcinella]

I hope we can all be friends, and respect one another's right to think differently from our own musical likes and dislikes.

Oh, don't worry!
Maybe I shouldn't have written that, but Mario and I know and respect each other far too well to fall out over differences of musical likes and dislikes.

[RichardB]

At the risk of offending Mario and others, this is a work I simply don't have any feeling for (and I've tried)

I would have said that (and in fact did!) before listening to the 2015 Harnoncourt recording yesterday. I became fully aware for the first time of what Mario was talking about with all his superlatives. (Although I might not go quite that far!) Because previously I had found it a very tough nut to crack.

[kea]

I never had much interest in the piece until hearing the live Gardiner recording (on SDG). Have since acquired a dozen or so recordings but that's still the one I keep coming back to; it has an intensity and immediacy that few other performances manage. I'm not sure who I'd recommend for a modern instruments performance, if any.

[Petrushka]

Two of the greatest moments in all music are in the Missa Solemnis: the thrilling, almost manic, conclusion to the Gloria and that unforgettable point in the Credo where, after the music sinks into the deep gloom of the 'Crucifixus', the air is suddenly shattered by the choral tenor's electrifying cry of 'Et Resurrexit'.

For those interested in finding out more about the Missa I'd recommend William Drabkin's Cambridge Music Handbook on the work: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-M...8&sr=8-1-fkmr0

[Mario]

I could write a book about how this work moves me (but I shan’t be doing so of course – your loss clearly ).

On the old BBC Messageboards I wrote a whole paragraph about just the final bar of the “Gloria”. This bar has sent me crazy ever since I heard it. The bar, 569 on the score is in 3/4 time and in D Maj. So far so good. However, the final tutti chord is on the first beat, i.e., the strongest beat in the bar. So far, again so good. But the chorus is carrying on, for two quavers and a crotchet, on the three syllables of glo-O-RI-A. This is mad (at least to a struggling Grade 6 Theory elderly student)!

The first beat of the bar is the strongest, which is on the 1st quaver for “O”. The second quaver in this last bar is on “RI”, which is part of the 1st strongest beat. And the chorus finishes, I would suspect exhausted, on the second beat of the bar with a crotchet “A”. We are then left with a crotchet rest to round off the bar, leaving us with a suspension in mid-air, as if an echo in some vast Brucknerian cathedral. I repeat, this is mad! WHERE is the strongest beat, as the orchestra has now finished and the chorus is singing on the weaker two beats of the bar? Surely this is not syncopation, is it?

And there is surely no “muddiness” here, is there, either aurally or literally?

And I now read on this thread that some conductor decides to whisper this last Gloria, clearly marked ff in bar 546, a full 23 bars before the finish – no diminuendos, no crescendos, no accelerandos, no ritardandos, simply to be played through as written, with the additional punch of a final sf on all instruments, leaving the chorus totally exposed. But pity Beethoven, what did he know, the deaf old man? A high F note for the sopranos, singing on after the orchestra has finished – yes, let’s change that to pp as Beethoven got it wrong. Guess the name of one conductor of whom I shall be wary from now on.

It really is difficult for me to control my Mediterranean temperament when I hear sacrilege such as this, butchering a work considered (forget my own over-egging-the-pudding comments), a towering achievement for its composer.

Pianoman, I have the Zinman recording, and find it rather earth-bound in comparison to Toscanini’s heaven-storming 1940 account. Nevertheless, I’m pleased you enjoyed it.

Pulcie, I will never join the ranks of the Forum Police and insist my opinion rates above yours – and you’re right, our friendship far supersedes any differences of opinion.

Kea, although there is much that I like about JEG, and I do find his execution of some Mozart works “cruel” in the literal meaning of the word, he simply has to tamper with that last Gloria bar, doesn’t he? He has his admirers here, so I’d best move on.

Petrushka, may I add a third ground-shaking moment to your list please? It occurs in the Gloria, bar 185, where Beethoven uses the very rare (for him) fff notation for the pater O-mnipotens (Almighty Father), the sopranos screaming the syllable on a high Ab. I don’t think you have to be religious to understand the significance of this moment. Toscanini does, ensuring his forces try their utmost to blast you out of your comfortable listening environment.

I apologise for my rant (I’m afraid I’m not blessed with that British self-restraint), and I apologise for my gushiness.

Can’t wait for the 2nd, though!

[Barbirollians]

I never had much interest in the piece until hearing the live Gardiner recording (on SDG). Have since acquired a dozen or so recordings but that's still the one I keep coming back to; it has an intensity and immediacy that few other performances manage. I'm not sure who I'd recommend for a modern instruments performance, if any.

I am surprised nobody else seems to have mentioned the Kubelik account on Orfeo - raved about by Rob Cowan when released with a very fine account of the Ninth Symphony the other year - Missa Solemnis was a work I admired rather than loved until I heard that sensational performance.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I could write a book about how this work moves me (but I shan’t be doing so of course – your loss clearly ).

On the old BBC Messageboards I wrote a whole paragraph about just the final bar of the “Gloria”. This bar has sent me crazy ever since I heard it. The bar, 569 on the score is in 3/4 time and in D Maj. So far so good. However, the final tutti chord is on the first beat, i.e., the strongest beat in the bar. So far, again so good. But the chorus is carrying on, for two quavers and a crotchet, on the three syllables of glo-O-RI-A. This is mad (at least to a struggling Grade 6 Theory elderly student)!

The first beat of the bar is the strongest, which is on the 1st quaver for “O”. The second quaver in this last bar is on “RI”, which is part of the 1st strongest beat. And the chorus finishes, I would suspect exhausted, on the second beat of the bar with a crotchet “A”. We are then left with a crotchet rest to round off the bar, leaving us with a suspension in mid-air, as if an echo in some vast Brucknerian cathedral. I repeat, this is mad! WHERE is the strongest beat, as the orchestra has now finished and the chorus is singing on the weaker two beats of the bar? Surely this is not syncopation, is it?

And there is surely no “muddiness” here, is there, either aurally or literally?

And I now read on this thread that some conductor decides to whisper this last Gloria, clearly marked ff in bar 546, a full 23 bars before the finish – no diminuendos, no crescendos, no accelerandos, no ritardandos, simply to be played through as written, with the additional punch of a final sf on all instruments, leaving the chorus totally exposed. But pity Beethoven, what did he know, the deaf old man? A high F note for the sopranos, singing on after the orchestra has finished – yes, let’s change that to pp as Beethoven got it wrong. Guess the name of one conductor of whom I shall be wary from now on.

It really is difficult for me to control my Mediterranean temperament when I hear sacrilege such as this, butchering a work considered (forget my own over-egging-the-pudding comments), a towering achievement for its composer.

Pianoman, I have the Zinman recording, and find it rather earth-bound in comparison to Toscanini’s heaven-storming 1940 account. Nevertheless, I’m pleased you enjoyed it.

Pulcie, I will never join the ranks of the Forum Police and insist my opinion rates above yours – and you’re right, our friendship far supersedes any differences of opinion.

Kea, although there is much that I like about JEG, and I do find his execution of some Mozart works “cruel” in the literal meaning of the word, he simply has to tamper with that last Gloria bar, doesn’t he? He has his admirers here, so I’d best move on.

Petrushka, may I add a third ground-shaking moment to your list please? It occurs in the Gloria, bar 185, where Beethoven uses the very rare (for him) fff notation for the pater O-mnipotens (Almighty Father), the sopranos screaming the syllable on a high Ab. I don’t think you have to be religious to understand the significance of this moment. Toscanini does, ensuring his forces try their utmost to blast you out of your comfortable listening environment.

I apologise for my rant (I’m afraid I’m not blessed with that British self-restraint), and I apologise for my gushiness.

Can’t wait for the 2nd, though!

That’s quite a famous moment the end of the Gloria isn’t it.? The first syllable glor is sung on the final beat of the penultimate bar then ties over the bar line while the orchestra play the final d major chord. Then ree ah is sung effectively off beat . So it is syncopation yes. That GlOr syllable is carried over the bar line by a tie so it’s not accented at that point - the first beat of the final bar. Though I guess a conductor could ask for some weird pumping effect .
On a grade 6 note Beethoven doubles the third (F sharp ) with both sops and tenors singing it - something that would have lost him a mark in O level music.

[RichardB]

Beethoven doubles the third (F sharp ) with both sops and tenors singing it - something that would have lost him a mark in O level music.

... which says more about O level music (which perhaps luckily I never took) than about Beethoven!

[Mario]

On a grade 6 note Beethoven doubles the third (F sharp ) with both sops and tenors singing it - something that would have lost him a mark in O level music.

Thank you EH – didn’t notice that!

May I ask why? Parallel 5ths & 8ves I know about (even though they send me crazy searching for them), but why is this bad – considered bad choral writing, or what?