BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[Keraulophone]

I heard a Die Walküre there (I’m assuming you are talking about the Hall For Cornwall) which , acoustically was one of the more satisfying I’ve ever heard . The singers were in front of a slightly reduced orchestra and were not once drowned out.

Since its reopening, the Hall for Cornwall has been calling itself the Cornwall Playhouse, perhaps an admission that it was never designed as a concert hall. (Same HfC web address but advertising 'Playhouse Shows' including, for example, the Bournemouth SO).

I was at that St Endellion-originated Die Walküre . The orchestra was on stage with the singers able to move around to a limited extent in front (Sieglinde grasping her score). I agree that the balance was very satisfying, and the dry acoustic let one hear the fascinating inner workings of the score. The vocally challenged Wotan was later replaced in the modestly-sized St Endellion Church by John Tomlinson. Thankfully the granite walls were up to it!

Apologies for off-topicness.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Since its reopening, the Hall for Cornwall has been calling itself the Cornwall Playhouse, perhaps an admission that it was never designed as a concert hall. (Same HfC web address but advertising 'Playhouse Shows' including, for example, the Bournemouth SO).

I was at that St Endellion-originated Die Walküre . The orchestra was on stage with the singers able to move around to a limited extent in front (Sieglinde grasping her score). I agree that the balance was very satisfying, and the dry acoustic let one hear the fascinating inner workings of the score. The vocally challenged Wotan was later replaced in the modestly-sized St Endellion Church by John Tomlinson. Thankfully the granite walls were up to it!

Apologies for off-topicness.

Good Brunhilde (Susan Bullock ) , good Siegmund and a very watchable timpanist ! Really put his heart and soul into it .
I bumped into the affable Ian Burnside (the festival director ) at the interval who said he’d pass on all my praise. Frankly I wish they’d do a RING there.

On topic (just) . I’ve noticed from the recording photo that one of Les Siecles second violinists is left handed : Fiddle in right hand , bow in left
Don’t think I’ve seen that before. Roth has the strings firsts , seconds , celli , violas.
Might be a different recording as there appears to be a female choir embedded in the orchestra.

[RichardB]

my new extension DAC lead has a red left hand speaker plug.

That's pretty fiendish!

[Master Jacques]

[...] Without opening a whole can of worms might a 60’s top French Orchestra be closer to Debussy’s musical world than a 21st century one albeit it in original instruments? Well I’ve opened it anyway

A good question. Of course La mer's premiere, with the Lamoreux Orchestre under Chevillard, was infamously inaccurate and mediocre. This prompted Debussy to try conducting it himself, but it wasn't until he conducted in London (Queen's Hall 1908) that he achieved something closer to the results he wanted. He wasn't surprised that the work proved much more popular in England than it had been in France.

My feeling is, that "authenticity" in this case certainly would not involve us going back to replicate the approximations of that Lamoreux premiere! Rather, the demands of the piece needed orchestral playing and conducting to evolve, before La mer could be properly appreciated by audiences. Barbirolli was an early pioneer and constant champion in his early conducting years - one reason he was respected so much in France, and invited over to record the work with the accomplished, new Orchestre de Paris in 1968, soon after the institution was founded.

[RichardB]

Without opening a whole can of worms might a 60’s top French Orchestra be closer to Debussy’s musical world than a 21st century one albeit it in original instruments?

I think the important thing about F-X Roth's recordings of Debussy and Ravel is the way he rethinks the scores from first principles and has an orchestra of excellent musicians at his disposal to make that rethinking real. The instruments used are a secondary consideration as far as I'm concerned. After all they aren't much different from the ones used in the 1960s, or the 2020s for that matter. It's a lighter, more transparent sound than most "modern" orchestras produce, which is very much to my liking, but then you have the unique virtuosity of Abbado's orchestra and just as creative and precise a vision of La Mer. And Boulez of course who's looking at Debussy as one of his most important influences as a composer. A composition like this stands at a cusp between two musical epochs, and can be approached from many different angles.

[cloughie]

Listened to De L’Aube from Barbirolli. Amazingly good recording 1969 with a real presence to the orchestra . The harps much more back in the mix than in the Reinerr or Karajan. To my ears that’s more realistic. Also listened again to Roth / Siecle - a better recording , more realistic with a wider stereo image. In the Barbirolli the woodwinds seem a bit confined within the mix - almost like a mono element. On the other hand I prefer the string sound in the Barbirolli , Roth’s violins sound a but shrill on the high notes. I absolutely love the flute sound from the Orchestre de Paris. Without opening a whole can of worms might a 60’s top French Orchestra be closer to Debussy’s musical world than a 21st century one albeit it in original instruments? Well I’ve opened it anyway

However I think the Roth is a very good recording. There’s a pic of one of the sessions - an outward angled main pair, and mics on left and right of strings , winds , and some spot mikes on percussion - can’t see all the mics . A pretty conservative rig - suspect not much different from the EMI engineers of 50 years ago. Interesting studio - looks like a partially renovated church

Finally apologies to the engineers on Barbirolli / BPO - Mahler 9 . My hifi was set up with left and right reversed . For some reason my new extension DAC lead has a red left hand speaker plug. Those violins are now in the right place. It took a recording with a very good instrument placing in the image to bring it out!

I think the difference between the 50s PCO sound and the 60s OdeP sound defines the move from the Gallic sound to the International orchestral sound and I like them both but certain French works played by the PCO and captured on record by the Decca engineers (or by EMI for Cluytens) always bring a smile to my face. I’m just pleased that there was hi enough fi in the 50s recording can for the engineers to work with. Coutesy

Reminds me of the old EMI Stereo test disc - ‘your speakers are out of phase’, ‘your speakers are out of phase’.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think the difference between the 50s PCO sound and the 60s OdeP sound defines the move from the Gallic sound to the International orchestral sound and I like them both but certain French works played by the PCO and captured on record by the Decca engineers (or by EMI for Cluytens) always bring a smile to my face. I’m just pleased that there was hi enough fi in the 50s recording can for the engineers to work with. Coutesy

Reminds me of the old EMI Stereo test disc - ‘your speakers are out of phase’, ‘your speakers are out of phase’.

Must try that PCO recording next sounds good.
The speakers weren’t out of phase ( I,e, pos / neg mis - configured ) - both CD and FM sound were fine . I’m running an extension lead out of my MacBook for streaming and for some bizarre reason the left hand channel has a red connector.
With classical balances it’s often difficult to spot left / right swaps particularly if the conductors splits the firsts and seconds.Or like Roth puts the violas right hand side. Also In the Roth the brass unusually is on the left. Most UK orchestras have brass right and horns . Which is why I tend to buy seats on the left in an effort to hear all the orchestra rather than an over loud brass section.

[cloughie]

Must try that PCO recording next sounds good.
The speakers weren’t out of phase ( I,e, pos / neg mis - configured ) - both CD and FM sound were fine . I’m running an extension lead out of my MacBook for streaming and for some bizarre reason the left hand channel has a red connector.
With classical balances it’s often difficult to spot left / right swaps particularly if the conductors splits the firsts and seconds.Or like Roth puts the violas right hand side. Also In the Roth the brass unusually is on the left. Most UK orchestras have brass right and horns . Which is why I tend to buy seats on the left in an effort to hear all the orchestra rather than an over loud brass section.

The ‘in phase/out of phase’ was more a nostalgic reference rather than the state of your system. If you want a French sounding ‘La mer’ try Silvestri from the ICON box - woodwind and timps have ‘that’ certain je ne sais quoi!
Cluytens Ravel and Martinon’s Ibert Divertissement well worth a listen. French sounds were also alive and well in Detroit and Boston back then also.

[gradus]

Phasing can be fiddly to get right and often causes me problems when I've disconnected speakers without colour coded leads. Shure produced a useful test disc in V153 days that included a phase test but not everyone has a turntable now and finding phase tests on line can be tricky.

[richardfinegold]

The ‘in phase/out of phase’ was more a nostalgic reference rather than the state of your system. If you want a French sounding ‘La mer’ try Silvestri from the ICON box - woodwind and timps have ‘that’ certain je ne sais quoi!
Cluytens Ravel and Martinon’s Ibert Divertissement well worth a listen. French sounds were also alive and well in Detroit and Boston back then also.

Yes, I will renew my plug for Paray

[Ein Heldenleben]

Phasing can be fiddly to get right and often causes me problems when I've disconnected speakers without colour coded leads. Shure produced a useful test disc in V153 days that included a phase test but not everyone has a turntable now and finding phase tests on line can be tricky.

The problem with phase reversal is after about 30 seconds or so the ear adjusts to the slightly weird audio sensation. One thing you can do is flick your amp into mono . If there’s a detectable drop in audio level that could mean your speakers are set up out of phase. Audio desks used to have (maybe still do ) a phase reverse button . You would get a very odd sensation - almost like a flea buzzing in your ear which after a while would ebb away. One sneaky trick set up in tests was to leave that button up to see if the trainee audio engineer noticed it.
Phase cancellation is a big problem in audio recording , particularly in the rock world but that’s a whole other story.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The ‘in phase/out of phase’ was more a nostalgic reference rather than the state of your system. If you want a French sounding ‘La mer’ try Silvestri from the ICON box - woodwind and timps have ‘that’ certain je ne sais quoi!
Cluytens Ravel and Martinon’s Ibert Divertissement well worth a listen. French sounds were also alive and well in Detroit and Boston back then also.

Thanks Yes I’ll give it a listen . Your out of phase reference was quite useful as I checked the speaker wires were the right way round !

[silvestrione]

The ‘in phase/out of phase’ was more a nostalgic reference rather than the state of your system. If you want a French sounding ‘La mer’ try Silvestri from the ICON box - woodwind and timps have ‘that’ certain je ne sais quoi!
Cluytens Ravel and Martinon’s Ibert Divertissement well worth a listen. French sounds were also alive and well in Detroit and Boston back then also.

I did try the Silvestri EMI (there's a Bournemouth one too on a BBC disc, mono) but , though I don't have a score, I suspected him of tampering with it (percussion) towards the end of the first movement? (He has form in that respect!)

[seabright]

Yes, I will renew my plug for Paray

Quite right too! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUr8hE3ZX2c

[Lordgeous]

This sounds pretty good too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHTOYXImpxM

Love the early Mercury recordings - sound so 'real'!