BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[underthecountertenor]

Her translation precisely matches the standard translation in any situation other than as used in French musical instructions. Even then, "un peu" does not suggest great prominence but slight lifting above the rest of the orchestra, when used in an orchestral score.

But the point is that in French musical instructions it’s not what it means. Context is all, and she’s a music scholar. She got the ‘un peu’ bit right but the rest wrong, and made it clear that she wanted the horns to sound slightly recessed rather than slightly emphasised.

To put it another way, if I thought ‘un peu en dehors’ meant ‘at a bit of a distance’ in a musical context it would have been good to have my misconception corrected by an expert, rather than reinforced!

[Bryn]

Apropos those brass fanfares in the finale, which were in the original edition but omitted from the reprint of the score, you can hear them in many recordings, though today's reviewer airily dismissed them. However, Noel Goodwin once wrote that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're left out. Rob Cowan's 'Gramophone Collection' review (September 2018) named all the recordings that included them, including Stokowski's, whose finale is on YouTube. The fanfares come in at 7:00 if you're impatient to hear them ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rELG4UW8IDc

I think Noel Goodwin was right!

Yes, on that point I would concur. She gave more emphasis to the revision of the piccolo part than to the rather more blatant removal of the fanfares.

[Master Jacques]

I think it’s quite a common French musical term. Poulenc uses it as well. Its all a bit irritating tbh why use cedez un peu when rit. Is shorter ?

This is developing into rather a strange discussion, is it not? A French composer is surely 100% wise to use French instructions - as here with 'un peu en dehors' - especially when there isn't an exact, standard Italian equivalent which matches the case.

Bax for example sometimes gives us an English instruction, as to tempo or feeling, with an Italian one in brackets. The problem is, that the two sometimes don't mean precisely the same thing, which creates fodder for academics (if no one else). It makes my head ache. Stick to English, Arnold!

Otherwise I must concur with feeling very disappointed in this BaL: the reviewer sounds authoritative, until we compare their assertions with the reality of what we hear, and/or what Debussy wrote or required. Not her field, evidently.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This is developing into rather a strange discussion, is it not? A French composer is surely 100% wise to use French instructions - as here with 'un peu en dehors' - especially when there isn't an exact, standard Italian equivalent which matches the case.

Bax for example sometimes gives us an English instruction, as to tempo or feeling, with an Italian one in brackets. The problem is, that the two sometimes don't mean precisely the same thing, which creates fodder for academics (if no one else). It makes my head ache. Stick to English, Arnold!

Otherwise I must concur with feeling very disappointed in this BaL: the reviewer sounds authoritative, until we compare their assertions with the reality of what we hear, and/or what Debussy wrote or required. Not her field, evidently.

I wonder if the reason that there isn’t an exact Italian equivalent is because they assume the performers are musical enough to work out what element of the texture to emphasise? The same effect can be achieved though by different dynamic markings between the instruments possibly . Or is it French composers being a bit over-controlling ?

[underthecountertenor]

This is developing into rather a strange discussion, is it not? A French composer is surely 100% wise to use French instructions - as here with 'un peu en dehors' - especially when there isn't an exact, standard Italian equivalent which matches the case.

Bax for example sometimes gives us an English instruction, as to tempo or feeling, with an Italian one in brackets. The problem is, that the two sometimes don't mean precisely the same thing, which creates fodder for academics (if no one else). It makes my head ache. Stick to English, Arnold!

Otherwise I must concur with feeling very disappointed in this BaL: the reviewer sounds authoritative, until we compare their assertions with the reality of what we hear, and/or what Debussy wrote or required. Not her field, evidently.

I agree (for what it’s worth). The nearest Italian standard musical term I can think of to ‘un peu en dehors’ is ‘un poco marcato’ (perhaps there’s something closer, but I can’t think of it) - but that would suggest a quite different effect.

[Pulcinella]

I agree (for what it’s worth). The nearest Italian standard musical term I can think of to ‘un peu en dehors’ is ‘un poco marcato’ (perhaps there’s something closer, but I can’t think of it) - but that would suggest a quite different effect.

In the sense of 'prominent' you might use 'in relievo'.

http://www.musictheory.org.uk/res-musical-terms/italian-musical-terms.php

PS: I think that the table is wrong. My instinct/first thought was 'in rilievo', which is what I think it should be.

[underthecountertenor]

In the sense of 'prominent' you might use 'in relievo'.

http://www.musictheory.org.uk/res-mu...ical-terms.php

Oh yes, that seems to indicate exactly the same intention as ‘en dehors’.
I probably have encountered that marking in a score, but don’t remember, and in my limited performing world I don’t encounter much Italian music after Verdi.
I wonder (pace Ein Heldenleben) whether in fact from the 20th century Italian composers also started using more detailed and prescriptive directions (outside the familiar list), but I for one am not familiar with them because I don’t encounter many Italian scores?

[ardcarp]

I don't like the 'under-the microscope' approach of Boulez. I was surprised how much I still like the Karajan version which I have. He's not thought of as a 'go to' conductor for the French repertoire of that era. I shall not be ordering the winner but then I hardly ever do! As usual, we didn't hear enough of the same passages compared. But I thought Flora Willson exercised reasonably good control over Andrew's interspersions.

[underthecountertenor]

I wonder if the reason that there isn’t an exact Italian equivalent is because they assume the performers are musical enough to work out what element of the texture to emphasise? The same effect can be achieved though by different dynamic markings between the instruments possibly . Or is it French composers being a bit over-controlling ?

Not just French composers? I give you ‘Mit Lebhaftigkeit und durchaus mit Empfindung und Ausdruck’. The last six words might be summarily translated as ‘and play it musically.’

[Bryn]

I don't like the 'under-the microscope' approach of Boulez. I was surprised how much I still like the Karajan version which I have. He's not thought of as a 'go to' conductor for the French repertoire of that era. I shall not be ordering the winner but then I hardly ever do! As usual, we didn't hear enough of the same passages compared. But I thought Flora Willson exercised reasonably good control over Andrew's interspersions.

His Pelléas et Mélisande was surely considered very much a cut above the average.

[Master Jacques]

Not just French composers? I give you ‘Mit Lebhaftigkeit und durchaus mit Empfindung und Ausdruck’. The last six words might be summarily translated as ‘and play it musically.’

Very good. Mind you, given some of the performances I've heard of Les Adieux, LvB was only too right to be worried that his interpreters might not play it musically, unless specifically instructed so to do!

[CallMePaul]

I shall not be ordering the winner but then I hardly ever do!

I would very much like to order this but according to Presto it is download only (and "no digital booklet included"), which rules it out for me. I have not checked on Amazon but if they have CDs in stock it will probably be at an inflated price! No mention was made at the end of the review that it is download only, which is a black mark. Has anyone heard Roth's LSO Live recording which is on CD, albeit with modern instruments. Roth/ Les Siecles recent recordings of Debussy and Ravel have been a revelation; is it not possible to reissue La Mer in CD format?

[CallMePaul]

I would very much like to order this but according to Presto it is download only (and "no digital booklet included"), which rules it out for me. I have not checked on Amazon but if they have CDs in stock it will probably be at an inflated price! No mention was made at the end of the review that it is download only, which is a black mark. Has anyone heard Roth's LSO Live recording which is on CD, albeit with modern instruments. Roth/ Les Siecles recent recordings of Debussy and Ravel have been a revelation; is it not possible to reissue La Mer in CD format?

Update! I have found this on Amazon at a normal price: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=debussy..._3_12_ts-doa-p
Amazon also claims that it has "more on the way"!

[Bryn]

Quite a lot of recordings from that stable seem to remain on CD for only a short while. The Krivine Beethoven Symphonies went the same way, though the download is very cheap. QOBUZ have the CD rate download of the Debussy for £9.49, replete with booklet pdf.

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/debussy-la-mer-premiere-suite-pour-orchestre-les-siecles-francois-xavier-roth/3149028023220

[seabright]

I'm quite content to listen to the Les Siecles / Roth recording on YouTube, even if the volume level is a bit on the low side, not helped by the thin-sounding orchestra ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI8JeOH9F2c