BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[kuligin]

I can not see the point when many excellent versions are said to be excluded due to shortage of time, which is understandable, that time is wasted on versions that clearly can not win. Anything recorded before 1960, though very interesting, really belongs to an Interpretations on Record programme.

A lot of information but not all of it relevant and little real analysis. And a great deal of agreement from Andrew, rather like a da capo aria, the same information twice but slightly differently presented.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks, Ein Heldenleben - precisely what (in my clumsy way) I was trying to say!

Apologies for cutting across you ! By the way am I alone in finding composers using their own language (rather than the lingua franca (so to speak ) of Italian a tad annoying?

[Bryn]

Thanks, Ein Heldenleben - precisely what (in my clumsy way) I was trying to say!

So, a use of the term specific to Debussy and Ravel but at considerable variance to its use relating to fortifications?

[Ein Heldenleben]

So, a use of the term specific to Debussy and Ravel but at considerable variance to its use relating to fortifications?

I think it’s quite a common French musical term. Poulenc uses it as well. Its all a bit irritating tbh why use cedez un peu when rit. Is shorter ?

[Alison]

Bring back Roger Nichols.

[Bryn]

I think what UTC is saying is that the French phrase “un peu en dehors “ means bring out or emphasise the melody not “at a sort of a distance “ . Precisely what H von K does. Fairly amazing that none of the music graduates in the studio spotted that.
Un peu en dehors is used a lot by Debussy.

I think she was getting at the "un peu" as being ignored by Karajan.

[underthecountertenor]

Apologies for cutting across you ! By the way am I alone in finding composers using their own language (rather than the lingua franca (so to speak ) of Italian a tad annoying?

What else do you expect from the French with their Frenchified ways?

[underthecountertenor]

I think she was getting at the "un peu" as being ignored by Karajan.

Nice attempt to justify her, but her translation of ‘un peu en dehors,’ as precisely transcribed above, was just wrong. And I’d expect someone who teaches (inter alia) 19th century French opera to know what it means. If she’s going to use it as a point of criticism she should really check its meaning first. As Ein Heldenleben says, it’s pretty commonly used in French scores.

[BBMmk2]

Nice attempt to justify her, but her translation of ‘un peu en dehors,’ as precisely transcribed above, was just wrong. And I’d expect someone who teaches (inter alia) 19th century French opera to know what it means.

I’m glad that’s a joke.

[Ein Heldenleben]

What else do you expect from the French with their Frenchified ways?

I was wondering whether psychologically having some of the instructions in French ( Debussy mixes them up with Italian) subtly makes you play things in a more “French “ way ? There is definitely a French style of piano playing - a way of articulating the notes that is different from the Russian way. He uses the phrase “ lointain “ a lot . Does that mean a subtle quiet veiled pedal sound to create a distant feel - and how precisely do you do it ? Makes “un peu en dehors “ sound relatively simple

[underthecountertenor]

I was wondering whether psychologically having some of the instructions in French ( Debussy mixes them up with Italian) subtly makes you play things in a more “French “ way ? There is definitely a French style of piano playing - a way of articulating the notes that is different from the Russian way. He uses the phrase “ lointain “ a lot . Does that mean a subtle quiet veiled pedal sound to create a distant feel - and how precisely do you do it ? Makes “un peu en dehors “ sound relatively simple

I like this very much.

[Goon525]

And a great deal of agreement from Andrew, rather like a da capo aria, the same information twice but slightly differently presented.

That’s an excellent description of AMcG’s contributions to BaL!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think she was getting at the "un peu" as being ignored by Karajan.

The “ en dehors” business is a classic idiomatic and contextual puzzler . It literally means outside. In music it means bring out or emphasise. It has a different meaning in ballet. Just googling there’s even an ABRSM forum of harpists trying to pin down what it means!
One tip : if you see cedez le passage on a French road it’s not a Debussy style musical instruction

[Bryn]

Nice attempt to justify her, but her translation of ‘un peu en dehors,’ as precisely transcribed above, was just wrong. And I’d expect someone who teaches (inter alia) 19th century French opera to know what it means. If she’s going to use it as a point of criticism she should really check its meaning first. As Ein Heldenleben says, it’s pretty commonly used in French scores.

Her translation precisely matches the standard translation in any situation other than as used in French musical instructions. Even then, "un peu" does not suggest great prominence but slight lifting above the rest of the orchestra, when used in an orchestral score.

[seabright]

Apropos those brass fanfares in the finale, which were in the original edition but omitted from the reprint of the score, you can hear them in many recordings, though today's reviewer airily dismissed them. However, Noel Goodwin once wrote that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're left out. Rob Cowan's 'Gramophone Collection' review (September 2018) named all the recordings that included them, including Stokowski's, whose finale is on YouTube. The fanfares come in at 7:00 if you're impatient to hear them ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rELG4UW8IDc

I think Noel Goodwin was right!