BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[richardfinegold]

This sounds pretty good too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHTOYXImpxM

Love the early Mercury recordings - sound so 'real'!

I still find this La Mer sounds the most natural. All the others I know, save Toscanini, sound Hi Fi gimmicky in comparison

[BBMmk2]

I still find this La Mer sounds the most natural. All the others I know, save Toscanini, sound Hi Fi gimmicky in comparison

Oh, what a wonderful recording this is. I always say, 99/100 every time with Paray.

[Lordgeous]

Alas so hard to find now, except at 'rareties' prices. Anyone have a copy to sell?!!!

[HighlandDougie]

Two current ways of acquiring the Paray 'La Mer':

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8728254--paul-paray-and-the-detroit-symphony-orchestra

No idea what it will sound like; and

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8052377--debussy-la-mer-iberia-prelude-a-lapres-midi-dun-faune

For those who really like Paray, Eloquence Classics is releasing (in mid-July) two boxes of his Mercury recordings:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=Paul%20Paray%20the%20Mercury%20Masters

[richardfinegold]

Two current ways of acquiring the Paray 'La Mer':

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8728254--paul-paray-and-the-detroit-symphony-orchestra

No idea what it will sound like; and

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8052377--debussy-la-mer-iberia-prelude-a-lapres-midi-dun-faune

For those who really like Paray, Eloquence Classics is releasing (in mid-July) two boxes of his Mercury recordings:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classica...cury%20Masters

I have the first link. I also have the big Mercury boxes, and I have the first CD issues. Buy that Japanese reissue box (the one with Paray sticking his tongue out). It has the best sound ( all 3 are pretty close) and at that price you get some of the best of the Mercury recordings

[mahlerfan]

Oh, what a wonderful recording this is. I always say, 99/100 every time with Paray.

One of your very best...

[Lordgeous]

I have the first link. I also have the big Mercury boxes, and I have the first CD issues. Buy that Japanese reissue box (the one with Paray sticking his tongue out). It has the best sound ( all 3 are pretty close) and at that price you get some of the best of the Mercury recordings

Hey, thanks. Japanese re-issue box is a bargain. Had many of these recordings when younger. Look forward to revisiting them.

[richardfinegold]

Hey, thanks. Japanese re-issue box is a bargain. Had many of these recordings when younger. Look forward to revisiting them.

The only problem is that some of tracks are listed in Japanese only, which discourages one from burning to a HD and then discarding, but that box is so superb that I could never discard it

[Keraulophone]

‘Grendel’ provides a succinct contrasting view from the majority of the cheap 10-CD Paray/Detroit box. Do any forumites agree with him/her?

‘I am afraid I cannot go along with the plaudits of other reviewers. At its best in the French music the Detroit band prove themselves to be rather third division and someone should have thought better of including the Schumann - where the conductor takes a very tight, even at times buttoned up, approach which fails to let the Germanic qualities of the music breathe. Overall the Detroiters, for all all their well drilled delivery, are prone to excitable moments of coarseness. In short there is little in this box set of curiosities to recommend unless you are a student of mid 20th century American orchestras or rarely performed French repertoire. Szell, Bernstein, Ormandy, Steinberg recordings are in a different league.‘

[cloughie]

‘Grendel’ provides a succinct contrasting view from the majority of the cheap 10-CD Paray/Detroit box. Do any forumites agree with him/her?

‘I am afraid I cannot go along with the plaudits of other reviewers. At its best in the French music the Detroit band prove themselves to be rather third division and someone should have thought better of including the Schumann - where the conductor takes a very tight, even at times buttoned up, approach which fails to let the Germanic qualities of the music breathe. Overall the Detroiters, for all all their well drilled delivery, are prone to excitable moments of coarseness. In short there is little in this box set of curiosities to recommend unless you are a student of mid 20th century American orchestras or rarely performed French repertoire. Szell, Bernstein, Ormandy, Steinberg recordings are in a different league.‘

I don’t think I look for smooth Germanic performances when I select DetSO/Paray from my shelves it is the swift delivery and Gallic sound that lights my candle and makes me smile!

[richardfinegold]

I don’t think I look for smooth Germanic performances when I select DetSO/Paray from my shelves it is the swift delivery and Gallic sound that lights my candle and makes me smile!

Exactly.
For much of their repertoire, such as the overtures to Operas by Composers such as Thomas or Auber, these are the only recordings to have. Paray did these with such a flair that it makes you wonder why you never hear this music elsewhere. Even when there is some competition, such Saint Saens (just try the Bacchanale from Samson and Delilah) or Suppe Overtures,, I haven’t heard anything more rousing than Paray.
His Charbier is the best-Espana is zestful and filled with color and the performance doesn’t give you the impression that they are slumming (compare to Bernstein/NYP).
What of the more “serious” works they recorded?. Saint Saens Organ Symphony, the Franck Symphony, the Schumann cycle, Dvorak New World, Rachmaninov Two? All of these are at worst competitive. The competition here is fierce, and we won’t pretend that the DSO has the same chops as the Boston SO (another American Orchestra that at that time was Franco-Russian oriented in repertoire), or the Vienna PO et. al,in the Central European repertoire. Here we listen for Paray. He generally uses swift tempos, light textures. Listen to his Schumann, and see if the HIPP performances come to mind, only with modern instruments and some vibrato and occasional portamento. Comparing this with Szell and Cleveland literally sounds like a battle between David and Goliath, with the Detroiters bring Michelangelo David to mind.
And that brings us to the repertoire that we consider them in the most, Debussy/Ravel. These 60 year old recordings, as fantastic as Mercury was, simply won’t blow your socks off such as later recordings do in the Hi Fi sense. Again, it’s the magic of Paray. The beginning of La Mer simply conjures up the deep vastness of the sea in a manner that Orchestras with more lung power do not. It apparently is achieved with the perfect balancing of the Orchestral Choirs, from the Harps on up. The Ravel has all of their virtues on hand-rhythmic alacrity, well sorted textures, and incisiveness that cuts to the points being made without getting lost in the details of the Orchestration.
One can pick these recordings apart all day for their “flaws”. Are the trumpets equal to the Concertgebouw? Are the strings equal to the Berlin PO? Does the recording sound as detailed as one from 2015? Of course not on all counts. However the Orchestra is never less than competent. The DSO of this era had some pretty fine players. For example, the Concertmaster was Mischa Mischikoff, who had the same position with Toscanini and NBC. We all know the Mercury story. If you are allergic to their recording techniques, well you won’t like this. However I think the sound they achieved is more honest, less gimmicky that what we typically get.
So Hansel or whatever the reviewer is named completely misses the point. It’s like criticizing Monet because he didn’t paint like Titian

[Barbirollians]

Been listening this evening to that extraordinarily atmospheric BBCSO/Toscanini La Mer this evening - such superb differentiation between the movements and salty , sharp characterisation.

[Keraulophone]

For much of their repertoire, such as the overtures to Operas by Composers such as Thomas or Auber, these are the only recordings to have. Paray did these with such a flair that it makes you wonder why you never hear this music elsewhere. Even when there is some competition, such as ... Suppe Overtures ... I haven’t heard anything more rousing than Paray.

Richard, you wrote about Paray with such admiration that I immediately searched through my Mercury box and was disappointed not to find more recordings by him. Dorati gets the lion's share in that first box of reissues. However, I put on the Suppé and Auber disc and immediately realised that what you'd said was absolutely valid. Paray makes Solti conducting the Vienna Philharmonic of a few years later sound earthbound. In the Marcel Dupré box, there's a Saint-Saëns 3rd Symphony from Detroit to knock your socks off!

Mme Dupré recalls: "the orchestra has now become truly first-class, since Paray took it over six years ago, when it was, apparently, mediocre ... the concert ended with Saint-Saëns's Organ Symphony - a great climax with a standing ovation. The whole concert was a huge success from beginning to end." The Parays were hospitable hosts: "Paray dinners are astonishing in the amount of food ingested: both are real food lovers ... here is what comprised dinner [on 29 Sept 1957]: caviar sprinkled with grated cheeseand I do not knoe what else; lobster mayonnaise (double portion); beef tenderlolin, 5 cm thick, huge; asparagus; and a Grand Marnier soufflé. Our dinners continue to be interesting and cheerful."
.

[richardfinegold]

Richard, you wrote about Paray with such admiration that I immediately searched through my Mercury box and was disappointed not to find more recordings by him. Dorati gets the lion's share in that first box of reissues. However, I put on the Suppé and Auber disc and immediately realised that what you'd said was absolutely valid. Paray makes Solti conducting the Vienna Philharmonic of a few years later sound earthbound. In the Marcel Dupré box, there's a Saint-Saëns 3rd Symphony from Detroit to knock your socks off!

Mme Dupré recalls: "the orchestra has now become truly first-class, since Paray took it over six years ago, when it was, apparently, mediocre ... the concert ended with Saint-Saëns's Organ Symphony - a great climax with a standing ovation. The whole concert was a huge success from beginning to end." The Parays were hospitable hosts: "Paray dinners are astonishing in the amount of food ingested: both are real food lovers ... here is what comprised dinner [on 29 Sept 1957]: caviar sprinkled with grated cheeseand I do not knoe what else; lobster mayonnaise (double portion); beef tenderlolin, 5 cm thick, huge; asparagus; and a Grand Marnier soufflé. Our dinners continue to be interesting and cheerful."
.

Oui, I got hungry reading that dinner description. I gather that you have the first Mercury reissue box; the second and third contained more Paray. I would pick up that Japanese reissue box that Dougie mentioned, as the CDs are generously filled (10 in all), the remastering is a slight improvement, and it is inexpensive.
I don't have the complete history of the DSO at my fingertips but they went bankrupt sometime around WWII and then reformed shortly after. Paray probably was the second Conductor in this period and would have built on the legacy of whoever had been charged with resurrecting the Orchestra.
The commonly held thought is that the DSO of the fifties was an inferior band that Paray lead to unexpected heights, perhaps somewhat analogous to Barbirolli and the Halle. However when I listen to recordings by French Orchestras of that era, particularly Monteux with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, and I compare the playing with that of the DSO, I think the DSO was intentionally modeled to sound similar--lean and agile rather than behemoth like

[cloughie]

Oui, I got hungry reading that dinner description. I gather that you have the first Mercury reissue box; the second and third contained more Paray. I would pick up that Japanese reissue box that Dougie mentioned, as the CDs are generously filled (10 in all), the remastering is a slight improvement, and it is inexpensive.
I don't have the complete history of the DSO at my fingertips but they went bankrupt sometime around WWII and then reformed shortly after. Paray probably was the second Conductor in this period and would have built on the legacy of whoever had been charged with resurrecting the Orchestra.
The commonly held thought is that the DSO of the fifties was an inferior band that Paray lead to unexpected heights, perhaps somewhat analogous to Barbirolli and the Halle. However when I listen to recordings by French Orchestras of that era, particularly Monteux with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, and I compare the playing with that of the DSO, I think the DSO was intentionally modeled to sound similar--lean and agile rather than behemoth like

Good comparisons methinks! DetSO (I always call it that in my indexing, as DSO is Dresden Staatskapelle), probably was one of the top French orchestras in the 50s/early sixties because of Paray, in the same way that Dutoit and the OSM were in the 80s, though the French links to Montreal and Quebec have remained stronger than Detroit and Michigan!