BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[Master Jacques]

[...] The harps in the Roth were exactly the level I would expect in the concert hall . They are not loud instruments - particularly when playing plucked octaves as in the ppp opening. In the Reiner they were clearly spot miked and absurdly loud. Mind you some of the CSO woodwind players were out of this world ..l

Unforgettable playing, for sure. Indeed, I would argue that the spot miking - 'absurd' though it may be in terms of realism - is what makes Reiner's recording of La mer a classic. The same is true of many of his other recordings, not least that Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, where the same philosophy is in play.

[richardfinegold]

Unforgettable playing, for sure. Indeed, I would argue that the spot miking - 'absurd' though it may be in terms of realism - is what makes Reiner's recording of La mer a classic. The same is true of many of his other recordings, not least that Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, where the same philosophy is in play.

I have always thought that the Reiner sounded a bit to gimmicky hi fi.

[Keraulophone]

…close to what we'd expect in the concert hall…
I suppose this is always one of the central questions of recording philosophy: are we looking for something to be heard to advantage in large, expansive acoustics (for which the Roth recording is very suited) or for more usual, small-to-medium listening rooms (where some artistry in the studio pays big dividends).

Quite - so much depends on the producer’s priorities and how far they are met by the sound engineer and the conductor. Concert halls vary in design, acoustics and seating arrangements. In our local hall, designed primarily for theatrical performance, side and rear sound reinforcement used to be so unsubtle that a patron sitting near one of the loudspeakers could not attune to sounds coming directly from the musicians on stage. (The recent £23m rebuild has improved this, though as last week’s Radio3 BBC NOW concert showed, the reverberation time is still next to zero.) Harps within the orchestra sound clearer in Symphony Hall, Birmingham than in the RAH or the ROH; though six of them were pretty clear in The Ring.

Cloughie, I’m sorry I was too late to your diversion re Sir Thomas. My STB society tie adorned with crossed cigar and baton still gets an occasional outing.

[cloughie]

Quite - so much depends on the producer’s priorities and how far they are met by the sound engineer and the conductor. Concert halls vary in design, acoustics and seating arrangements. In our local hall, designed primarily for theatrical performance, side and rear sound reinforcement used to be so unsubtle that a patron sitting near one of the loudspeakers could not attune to sounds coming directly from the musicians on stage. (The recent £23m rebuild has improved this, though as last week’s Radio3 BBC NOW concert showed, the reverberation time is still next to zero.) Harps within the orchestra sound clearer in Symphony Hall, Birmingham than in the RAH or the ROH; though six of them were pretty clear in The Ring.

Cloughie, I’m sorry I was too late to your diversion re Sir Thomas. My STB society tie adorned with crossed cigar and baton still gets an occasional outing.

[Barbirollians]

Which just goes to show how different people interpret the same sounds. For me in De L’Aube the Roth (Siecle and LSO live) were the most atmospheric with Abbado Lucerne Festival a good second.Reiner CSO and Karajan were both excellent performances but the engineers hadn’t really captured anything of the atmosphere.
The harps in the Roth were exactly the level I would expect in the concert hall . They are not loud instruments - particularly when playing plucked octaves as in the ppp opening. In the Reiner they were clearly spot miked and absurdly loud. Mind you some of the CSO woodwind players were out of this world ..l

I was referring to his Les Siecles recording that won not the LSO account.

Listening again today to Orchestre de Paris/Barbirolli - now that is atmospheric !

[ardcarp]

Yes, Symphony Hall (Brum) has very fine acoustics. I went to a performance of Holst's Hymn of Jesus, in which one of my daughters was in the women's semichorus up high at the back. You could hear everything with amazing clarity, and the acoustics were not 'dry' nor over-reverberant. I think the architects had had expert advice on achieving this.

A more recent but smaller concert venue, Milton Hall near the Barbican, has 'adjustable acoustics'. I think various panels and spaces can be tweaked at the press of a few buttons to suit the music being played (e.g.piano solo, string quartet or vocal ensemble). My last visit there was for a piano recital which had both clarity and warmth.

Two other extreme examples:

1. A certain public school (which shall remain nameless) had a brand new smallish concert/theatre venue built, including pipe organ, and with raked seating. (I think it was funded by a massive donation from a parent or ex-pupil.) Its acoustic is so dry, it is horrible to perform in, and even the spoken word from the stage is swallowed up into nothingness...unless a speaker system is used.

2. Going back to Brum, the University Great Hall is vast with a curved ceiling which reminds me a bit of St Pancras Station. The reverberation time is around 10 seconds. When a huge 4-manual HN&B organ was installed (over 60 years ago now) the builders put large sacks filled with paper on all the chairs in the main body of the hall, so that the voicers could get an idea of the typical acoustic when full of people, e.g. for degree ceremonies.

[Bryn]

I was referring to his Les Siecles recording that won not the LSO account.

Whereas Ein Heldenleben referred to both.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Unforgettable playing, for sure. Indeed, I would argue that the spot miking - 'absurd' though it may be in terms of realism - is what makes Reiner's recording of La mer a classic. The same is true of many of his other recordings, not least that Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, where the same philosophy is in play.

And this is the eternal debate - create a unique made for hifi sonic entity in the manner of Decca/ Culshaw or “recreate” the acoustic experience of being in a concert hall e,g many EMI Barbirolli recordings.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Quite - so much depends on the producer’s priorities and how far they are met by the sound engineer and the conductor. Concert halls vary in design, acoustics and seating arrangements. In our local hall, designed primarily for theatrical performance, side and rear sound reinforcement used to be so unsubtle that a patron sitting near one of the loudspeakers could not attune to sounds coming directly from the musicians on stage. (The recent £23m rebuild has improved this, though as last week’s Radio3 BBC NOW concert showed, the reverberation time is still next to zero.) Harps within the orchestra sound clearer in Symphony Hall, Birmingham than in the RAH or the ROH; though six of them were pretty clear in The Ring.

Cloughie, I’m sorry I was too late to your diversion re Sir Thomas. My STB society tie adorned with crossed cigar and baton still gets an occasional outing.

I heard a Die Walküre there (I’m assuming you are talking about the Hall For Cornwall) which , acoustically was one of the more satisfying I’ve ever heard . The singers were in front of a slightly reduced orchestra and were not once drowned out.

[RichardB]

And this is the eternal debate - create a unique made for hifi sonic entity in the manner of Decca/ Culshaw or “recreate” the acoustic experience of being in a concert hall e,g many EMI Barbirolli recordings.

There's plenty of room for both approaches, isn't there? - and many variations of approach within each one, just as concert halls (as has been said) vary enormously in their response to different musics. What do you think about Barbirolli's Mahler 9 in that regard? To me it sounds very studio-produced, but in the good way that was standard for the Berliners at that time, whether on EMI or DGG.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's plenty of room for both approaches, isn't there? - and many variations of approach within each one, just as concert halls (as has been said) vary enormously in their response to different musics. What do you think about Barbirolli's Mahler 9 in that regard? To me it sounds very studio-produced, but in the good way that was standard for the Berliners at that time, whether on EMI or DGG.

Yes definitely room for both approaches. I’ve been conditioned to the EMI way because that was the way of a major broadcaster familiar to us all. I also enjoy from time to time Decca recordings - particularly their opera recordings where some “artifice” is more than acceptable.
I don’t know Barbirolli Mahler 9 well because I try to keep that work for special occasions. One of the very few works I try to avoid over - listening to!
I’ll give it a listen as I am intrigued. His Mahler 5 is a good example of a first rate recording that has discernible
ungimmicky placement of the orchestra. I would use the word “life-like “ or realistic were that not question-begging !

Incidentally in theory EMI and DGG had similar recording philosophies but I’ve heard that kind of went out of the window with H v K - who was , allegedly , a real fader - fuss pot.

Update - listened to the first 5 mins of the BPO 9:
Something rather weird . The violin balance is very right hand skewed. First violin entry on the right of stereo image - that’s ok cos it’s the 2nds and Sir John must have split them left and right . But then when the firsts join in it’s still violins right (ish ) in the image.
Check cables - yes set up correctly.
Then play Mahler 5 Hallé - a reference recording . Violin placement perfectly ok .
This is all from the Warner box set of 1,5,6,9 and songs
Harp spot miked and too prominent - you can hear it too forward in the balance - not sitting in the orchestra
Timps very left hand channel
Intrigued I listened to the single CD of the same recording . Slightly lower level - violin placement on rhs not so noticeable.
Then listened to Karajan BPO - much lower level transfer !
Second violins nothing like so right in the balance .
More importantly both performances wonderful!
This , to me is a better balance. There’s quite a bit of chair creaking though

[Barbirollians]

Yes definitely room for both approaches. I’ve been conditioned to the EMI way because that was the way of a major broadcaster familiar to us all. I also enjoy from time to time Decca recordings - particularly their opera recordings where some “artifice” is more than acceptable.
I don’t know Barbirolli Mahler 9 well because I try to keep that work for special occasions. One of the very few works I try to avoid over - listening to!
I’ll give it a listen as I am intrigued. His Mahler 5 is a good example of a first rate recording that has discernible
ungimmicky placement of the orchestra. I would use the word “life-like “ or realistic were that not question-begging !

Incidentally in theory EMI and DGG had similar recording philosophies but I’ve heard that kind of went out of the window with H v K - who was , allegedly , a real fader - fuss pot.

Update - listened to the first 5 mins of the BPO 9:
Something rather weird . The violin balance is very right hand skewed. First violin entry on the right of stereo image - that’s ok cos it’s the 2nds and Sir John must have split them left and right . But then when the firsts join in it’s still violins right (ish ) in the image.
Check cables - yes set up correctly.
Then play Mahler 5 Hallé - a reference recording . Violin placement perfectly ok .
This is all from the Warner box set of 1,5,6,9 and songs
Harp spot miked and too prominent - you can hear it too forward in the balance - not sitting in the orchestra
Timps very left hand channel
Intrigued I listened to the single CD of the same recording . Slightly lower level - violin placement on rhs not so noticeable.
Then listened to Karajan BPO - much lower level transfer !
Second violins nothing like so right in the balance .
More importantly both performances wonderful!
This , to me is a better balance. There’s quite a bit of chair creaking though

Very interesting response but the Mahler 5 was with the New Philharmonia not the Halle. More on topic I recommend as above the Barbirolli Orchestre de Paris La Mer for its atmosphere .

[Barbirollians]

Whereas Ein Heldenleben referred to both.

So EH did - I read LSO only . The Siecles recording left me impressed but unmoved .

[visualnickmos]

So EH did - I read LSO only . The Siecles recording left me impressed but unmoved .

That's one better than me!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Very interesting response but the Mahler 5 was with the New Philharmonia not the Halle. More on topic I recommend as above the Barbirolli Orchestre de Paris La Mer for its atmosphere .

Listened to De L’Aube from Barbirolli. Amazingly good recording 1969 with a real presence to the orchestra . The harps much more back in the mix than in the Reiner or Karajan. To my ears that’s more realistic. Also listened again to Roth / Siecle - a better recording , more realistic with a wider stereo image. In the Barbirolli the woodwinds seem a bit confined within the mix - almost like a mono element. On the other hand I prefer the string sound in the Barbirolli , Roth’s violins sound a but shrill on the high notes. I absolutely love the flute sound from the Orchestre de Paris. Without opening a whole can of worms might a 60’s top French Orchestra be closer to Debussy’s musical world than a 21st century one albeit it in original instruments? Well I’ve opened it anyway

However I think the Roth is a very good recording. There’s a pic of one of the sessions - an outward angled main pair, and mics on left and right of strings , winds , and some spot mikes on percussion - can’t see all the mics . A pretty conservative rig - suspect not much different from the EMI engineers of 50 years ago. Interesting studio - looks like a partially renovated church

Finally apologies to the engineers on Barbirolli / BPO - Mahler 9 . My hifi was set up with left and right reversed . For some reason my new extension DAC lead has a red left hand speaker plug. Those violins are now in the right place. It took a recording with a very good instrument placing in the image to bring it out!