BaL 11.06.22 - Debussy: La Mer

[Bryn]

He chose Halle/Elder!

And BaL runs for 45 minutes or so, not just half an hour.

[Master Jacques]

[LSO] It has too much to lose in terms of its musical reputation to appoint a sort of Malcolm-Sargent-de-nos-jours as its Principal Guest Conductor.

Ouch! An invidious comparison, given the standards of Sargent on a good night. We need to take many of the stories detailing his preening laziness with a barrel of salt, as many of them emanated from the savage, competitive mockery of Beecham.

For example ... I had the pleasure of reviewing the uncut first production of Walton's Troilus and Cressida at Covent Garden, which turned up a few years ago from good quality radio broadcasts, captured on acetate discs for BBC's Transcription Service. Received wisdom had always been that the opera's success had been compromised by (among other things) the casting of the Hungarian soprano Magda Lazslo as Cressida, and a complacent lack of preparation from Sargent.

Lo and behold, hearing the transfer revealed that although Lazslo's English was slightly odd, her rich singing was beautiful and nuanced. Two of the fine baritones in the cast had stronger accents. More to the point, Sargent's conducting - despite a few rough edges - consistently brought humour and thrilling life to a score which can sound contrived (e.g. under Hickox). His passionate way with the erotic 'storm interlude' has never been bettered. Those two imparted major strengths to the performance on disc, along with the two, great tenors Lewis and Pears in full flight.

In my experience, Sargent in opera is always a plus, not a minus; and however mundane or dated some of his studio LPs seem to us now, their sales (marketed around his name) would be the envy of most of today's batch of baton-wielders. As for the LSO, they were usually very happy to have Sargent in front. Roth will have to go some, to get anywhere near the multitude of commercial - and often artistically - successful records Sargent made with that orchestra, for starters!

I only know his La Mer from a - very enjoyable, if not particularly distinctive, outing with the BBC SO (on Carlton Classics CD). Here is what a reviewer on Amazon had to say about it:

Sargent's La Mer is interesting: he's remarkably faithful to the score; his tempi and dynamics follow Debussy's expectations closely. Not surprisingly for someone so well versed in Tchaikovsky and his compatriots, Sargent shows up just how indebted Debussy was to Russian music. Though not a match for Haitink's or Boulez's versions - not least because the recording quality of this CD is from the 1960s - Sargent gives us a clear view of the sea.

[ardcarp]

Sargent was a bit of a personality IIRC. I think my parents watched him on TV playing the piano (?) and gurning at the camera in a faintly Liberace fashion. I may be wrong about this...childhood memories and all that.

Am I right too that he wasn't overkeen on 'modern' music. e.g. Stravinsky? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

On that subject, I do remember clearly Hugo Rignold getting lost in The Rite of Spring with the CBSO. It was not a world-class orchestra way back in the early 6os, but they made a valiant attempt to keep 'the maestro' on the rails. I was there...with a score!

[HighlandDougie]

Ouch! An invidious comparison, given the standards of Sargent on a good night. We need to take many of the stories detailing his preening laziness with a barrel of salt, as many of them emanated from the savage, competitive mockery of Beecham.

For example ... I had the pleasure of reviewing the uncut first production of Walton's Troilus and Cressida at Covent Garden, which turned up a few years ago from good quality radio broadcasts, captured on acetate discs for BBC's Transcription Service. Received wisdom had always been that the opera's success had been compromised by (among other things) the casting of the Hungarian soprano Magda Lazslo as Cressida, and a complacent lack of preparation from Sargent.

Lo and behold, hearing the transfer revealed that although Lazslo's English was slightly odd, her rich singing was beautiful and nuanced. Two of the fine baritones in the cast had stronger accents. More to the point, Sargent's conducting - despite a few rough edges - consistently brought humour and thrilling life to a score which can sound contrived (e.g. under Hickox). His passionate way with the erotic 'storm interlude' has never been bettered. Those two imparted major strengths to the performance on disc, along with the two, great tenors Lewis and Pears in full flight.

In my experience, Sargent in opera is always a plus, not a minus; and however mundane or dated some of his studio LPs seem to us now, their sales (marketed around his name) would be the envy of most of today's batch of baton-wielders. As for the LSO, they were usually very happy to have Sargent in front. Roth will have to go some, to get anywhere near the multitude of commercial - and often artistically - successful records Sargent made with that orchestra, for starters!

I only know his La Mer from a - very enjoyable, if not particularly distinctive, outing with the BBC SO (on Carlton Classics CD). Here is what a reviewer on Amazon had to say about it:

Sargent's La Mer is interesting: he's remarkably faithful to the score; his tempi and dynamics follow Debussy's expectations closely. Not surprisingly for someone so well versed in Tchaikovsky and his compatriots, Sargent shows up just how indebted Debussy was to Russian music. Though not a match for Haitink's or Boulez's versions - not least because the recording quality of this CD is from the 1960s - Sargent gives us a clear view of the sea.

I was, mea culpa (am I being stuffy when I say that I hate the Americanism, "my bad"), being very unfair to a fine conductor to whom music-making in the UK and further afield owes a large debt. I think that Beecham is much to blame for the whole, "Flash Harry", soubriquet (but I haven't checked that out so I may be wrong). Whatever, F-X R is a fine conductor: fidelity to scores and a highly attuned ear being among his many qualities. I realise that other forumistas (you know who you are!) have accused him of being "dull" but, à chacun son goût, that is about the last word I would ever use to describe his performances. That Cologne Mahler 3rd? Wonderful!

[RichardB]

That Cologne Mahler 3rd? Wonderful!

What? Mahler 3? How did I let that pass me by??? That's this evening's listening sorted.

[Master Jacques]

I was, mea culpa (am I being stuffy when I say that I hate the Americanism, "my bad"), being very unfair to a fine conductor to whom music-making in the UK and further afield owes a large debt. I think that Beecham is much to blame for the whole, "Flash Harry", soubriquet (but I haven't checked that out so I may be wrong). Whatever, F-X R is a fine conductor: fidelity to scores and a highly attuned ear being among his many qualities. I realise that other forumistas (you know who you are!) have accused him of being "dull" but, à chacun son goût, that is about the last word I would ever use to describe his performances. That Cologne Mahler 3rd? Wonderful!

I must seek that one out, as I've never heard it - thank you!

Your mea culpa penance might be to try out a marvellous off-air Bax No. 3 from the mid-1950s. This has been circulating amongst admiring Baxians for years, and can now be heard complete on YouTube in Richard Adams's very reasonable mastering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07mnk8AsX38

This, to frank your comment, is anything but dull. Superb playing and conducting, getting the balance of forward movement and reflection just right.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was, mea culpa (am I being stuffy when I say that I hate the Americanism, "my bad"), being very unfair to a fine conductor to whom music-making in the UK and further afield owes a large debt. I think that Beecham is much to blame for the whole, "Flash Harry", soubriquet (but I haven't checked that out so I may be wrong). Whatever, F-X R is a fine conductor: fidelity to scores and a highly attuned ear being among his many qualities. I realise that other forumistas (you know who you are!) have accused him of being "dull" but, à chacun son goût, that is about the last word I would ever use to describe his performances. That Cologne Mahler 3rd? Wonderful!

Pretty sure that Beecham’s nickname for Sargent was “Flash” . When Sir M. went on a Far East tour Sir Thomas
remarked “ it’s Flash In Japan.” Sargent did so much for music making in this country and his legacy lives on with with the CLIC Sargent cancer charity , now I notice rebranded. Britain is very lucky to have had both Sargent and Beecham as musical leaders.

[Bryn]

What? Mahler 3? How did I let that pass me by??? That's this evening's listening sorted.

It is, indeed, well worth hearing (48/24 on QOBUZ) though one minor niggle, for me, is the oboe and cor Anglais 'night bird'. A wee bit too stepped. Others have lifted them more smoothly. Still, it is open to debate, exactly what Mahler intended by the instruction "hinaufziehen - wie ein Naturlaut", but a portamento which, I am given to understand is more easily accomplished on Viennese oboes, seems right to me.

See https://www.fugato.com/pickett/mahler3-4.shtml

[RichardB]

one minor niggle, for me, is the oboe and cor Anglais 'night bird'

After my previous post, I thought I'd listen to movement 2 before leaving the office for the evening, and ended up staying for the following two movements as well. Those portamenti in Roth's recording are fine as far as I'm concerned. When they're done smoothly they always sound a bit out of style to my ears, it isn't a deal-breaker but, as Mahler would have known, Viennese oboes were not much more widely used in his time than they are now, and indeed the Gürzenich-Orchester of Cologne was responsible for the first complete performance of the symphony, partial performances having previously taken place in Berlin, so he was presumably quite happy for Viennese oboes not to be involved.

[Bryn]

After my previous post, I thought I'd listen to movement 2 before leaving the office for the evening, and ended up staying for the following two movements as well. Those portamenti in Roth's recording are fine as far as I'm concerned. When they're done smoothly they always sound a bit out of style to my ears, it isn't a deal-breaker but, as Mahler would have known, Viennese oboes were not much more widely used in his time than they are now, and indeed the Gürzenich-Orchester of Cologne was responsible for the first complete performance of the symphony, partial performances having previously taken place in Berlin, so he was presumably quite happy for Viennese oboes not to be involved.

I have, so far, been unable to track down an item I read many years ago which went as far as to try and identify the species 'night bird' Mahler was alluding to. That might help clarify the issue of how it was intended to sound. The ^ above the second note of the phrase would tend towards a more stepped approach, I suppose but who knows for sure? For many decades the hinaufziehen - wie ein Naturlaut instruction was effectively ignored altogether.

[mahlerfan]

We need to take many of the stories detailing his preening laziness with a barrel of salt, as many of them emanated from the savage, competitive mockery of Beecham.

Beecham was a hoot! I love his description of the up and coming Herbert von Karajan - 'a sort of musical Malcolm Sargent'

[RichardB]

Beecham was a hoot!

I incline more towards the description of Beecham by one of the characters in John Fowles' The Collector: "a pompous little duckarsed bandmaster who stood against everything creative in the art of his time." One's mileage may vary of course.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I incline more towards the description of Beecham by one of the characters in John Fowles' The Collector: "a pompous little duckarsed bandmaster who stood against everything creative in the art of his time." One's mileage may vary of course.

Not sure about that . He conducted the UK premiere of Salome - he and the cast went through quite a bit of subterfuge to present the uncensored text.

[cloughie]

Pretty sure that Beecham’s nickname for Sargent was “Flash” . When Sir M. went on a Far East tour Sir Thomas
remarked “ it’s Flash In Japan.” Sargent did so much for music making in this country and his legacy lives on with with the CLIC Sargent cancer charity , now I notice rebranded. Britain is very lucky to have had both Sargent and Beecham as musical leaders.

…and with Boult and Barbirolli around at the same time our luck was fourfold!

[RichardB]

He conducted the UK premiere of Salome

Yes, and The Rite of Spring, but he lived for almost another half century after that, during which as far as I know he turned his back on "modern music".