BaL 19.03.22 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 9 in D minor

[RichardB]

The Rosamunde music is nowhere near the level of inspiration to the first two movements in my opinion.

Maybe. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I think it's arguably true of Schubert's 5th symphony also, and I do sometimes just listen to its first two movements only. I just find the four-movement version of the B minor symphony more satisfying as an overall form. On the other hand I find Bruckner's 9th more satisfying in its three-movement form. It isn't something I feel dogmatic about.

[cloughie]

Maybe. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I think it's arguably true of Schubert's 5th symphony also, and I do sometimes just listen to its first two movements only. I just find the four-movement version of the B minor symphony more satisfying as an overall form. On the other hand I find Bruckner's 9th more satisfying in its three-movement form. It isn't something I feel dogmatic about.

Now there I disagree with you, Richard, the 5th is always (well maybe under the wrong baton not quite always) a joy to listen throughout - a real spirit lifter with blue sky and sunshine. But then I suppose it all depends on what your requirements are of a piece of music.

[ahinton]

the Bruckner 9 finales I've heard simply don't interest me very much as music - they just aren't on anything like the same musical level as the three movements preceding them

I find this curious - not becuase I disagree with you (although I do!) but because we now know that Bruckner himself wrote far more of that finale than was once thought, so might it be the case for you that Bruckner's inspiration was tailing off somewhat?

[Serial_Apologist]

What he originally wrote for both suit me fine. Am I to understand that you prefer the substitute final movement of Op. 130 to the Grosse Fuge in the context of the other 5 movements?

I can never really make up my mind. What therefore I usually do is first listen to the version with the Grosse Fuge finale, and then, following a meal break, all over again, with the "final", "jaunty" version!

[RichardB]

Now there I disagree with you, Richard

I said "arguably", it isn't a point of view I'm particularly committed to, although I would say that the first two movements of no.5 are more memorable than the last two (which indeed I can't bring to mind at this precise moment whereas I have a fairly exact idea of most of what happens in the first and second movements). It was just a way of saying that if one feels the last two movements of the B minor don't measure up to the first two (but is this more to do with familiarity and canonical masterpiece status than anything else?) that isn't necessarily a reason to leave them out. The problem (returning to topic) with Bruckner 9 for me is of a different order. As I might have said earlier, I have the feeling that he was well aware that what he had written was inadequate, that (as with the Trio of the second movement) to make it do so might well have required a fundamental rewrite, and that perhaps making something that would have constituted a culmination and completion of his scheme was beyond his capabilities, or beyond human capabilities. Maybe Moses und Aron is a comparable case, ending as it does with "O wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt!" rather than the "... vereinigt mit Gott" with which the libretto ends. This is all quite fanciful of course!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Rosamunde music is nowhere near the level of inspiration to the first two movements in my opinion.

The 3rd movement was sketched by Schubert, with just a few bars missing from the trio section. He orchestrated only the opening bars. The B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde is very different from the rest of the incidental music, casting doubt upon it being originally intended for that purpose, which is why some scholars think it may have been intended as the symphony's finale in the first place.

[ahinton]

I can never really make up my mind. What therefore I usually do is first listen to the version with the Grosse Fuge finale, and then, following a meal break, all over again, with the "final", "jaunty" version!

I have on occasion heard performances of that quartet with the substite movement following the Grosse Fuge which, frankly, is even more of a let down than those in which that substitute movement takes the Grosse Fuge's place.

One thing that's always struck me as odd about that substitute movement (especially in the present Brucknerian context) is that, whilst Brucker was all too willing to listen to those who seemed to think that they know better how to compose his symphonies than he hiself did, Beethoven rarely subjected his work to the opinions of others...

[cloughie]

I have on occasion heard performances of that quartet with the substite movement following the Grosse Fuge which, frankly, is even more of a let down than those in which that substitute movement takes the Grosse Fuge's place.

One thing that's always struck me as odd about that substitute movement (especially in the present Brucknerian context) is that, whilst Brucker was all too willing to listen to those who seemed to think that they know better how to compose his symphonies than he hiself did, Beethoven rarely subjected his work to the opinions of others...

I used to think that Bruckner was indecisive - now I’m not so sure! As to Beethoven it appears that posthumously there has been no shortage of opinions, ideas and revisions and tinkering with orchestrations.

[RichardB]

I used to think that Bruckner was indecisive - now I’m not so sure!

The framing of Bruckner's supposed indecisiveness as a negative aspect of his compositional personality seems to be to be a throwback to the 19th century artist-as-hero concept, where any lack of rugged individualism in the way an artist pursues his (sic) vision is regarded as a weakness. In other words whether Bruckner or someone else is responsible for some feature of a composition that bears his name shouldn't really be that important. What the music is doing should IMO be more important than how it came to be the way that it is, and when in the course of listening I find myself being distracted by the latter it's usually a sign that the former isn't engaging me deeply enough. The finale of Bruckner 9 is a prime example in my experience. Of course I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't have been attempted and shouldn't be performed, just that it's not a convincing musical experience as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand I have recordings of (I think) all the extant realisations of Mahler 10 and very clear ideas about them and which I prefer - Mazzetti II, by some distance, because when I hear it I find myself listening to the music and not the realisation.

[ahinton]

The finale of Bruckner 9 is a prime example in my experience. Of course I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't have been attempted and shouldn't be performed, just that it's not a convincing musical experience as far as I'm concerned.

OK, but I do not imagine that I'm alone in wondering whether you consider that your reaction here arises from an impression that Bruckner was suddenly no longer on top form in that finale given how much of it we now know he himself wrote...

[richardfinegold]

I used to think that Bruckner was indecisive - now I’m not so sure!

Pun intended, correct?

[cloughie]

Pun intended, correct?

Well yes but I've always found his finales rather ragged sounding and the number of ‘consultants’ involved in versions rather excessive for a great composer - I can’t think of another composer who needed this, or maybe others did not own up to it!

[RichardB]

the number of ‘consultants’ involved in versions rather excessive for a great composer - I can’t think of another composer who needed this

But why is this a problem?

[cloughie]

But why is this a problem?

Not really - Bruckner was what he was and an interesting legacy left in his music!

[RichardB]

Not really - Bruckner was what he was and an interesting legacy left in his music!

Indeed - I feel sorry for Bruckner, being so often criticised for canvassing the opinions of others as if this calls his artistic integrity or inspiration into question!