BaL 19.03.22 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 9 in D minor

[Bryn]

That's how I usually listen to it.

Ah, so you unfinish it for Beethoven, eh?

[cloughie]

That's how I usually listen to it.

Has it got a 4th movement?

[RichardB]

Ah, so you unfinish it for Beethoven, eh?

If only someone had persuaded him to provide a replacement finale as for op.130!

[Bryn]

If only someone had persuaded him to provide a replacement finale as for op.130!

What he originally wrote for both suit me fine. Am I to understand that you prefer the substitute final movement of Op. 130 to the Grosse Fuge in the context of the other 5 movements?

[Barbirollians]

The third movement seems the perfect Benediction to Bruckner’s life with the long drawn out ending. (I always pity the first horn who has to sustain a perfect, quiet top B which seems to go on for ages). None of us know when the Grim Reaper may call and Bruckner didn’t either as he was working on the Finale the day he died with souvenir hunters taking sheets of sketches which were never seen again, surely ranking high in the cultural vandalism stakes. It’s fascinating to note Bruckner had orchestrated the first three movements for performance and only after that contemplated the Finale. How different is Elgar who had sketches and development ideas for all four movements of his Symphony No 3. He had new energy and confidence, so what a shame the GR interfered too soon again!
It’s good to hear four movement versions of Bruckner 9 no matter how inadequate as it shows he hadn’t had his last word. How differently we would view Beethoven’s Ninth if it stopped after the third movement!
Talking about premature life endings, there’s a nice story that Previn told regarding an Atlantic flight he was taking in the company of Barbirolli when they encounter very severe turbulence. ‘Oh no,’ said JB, ‘I can’t die yet, I haven’t conducted all Bruckner's symphonies.’

There are lots of good things to hear in the Rattle recording of the fourth movement - but I find it not much more convincing as completions of the Schubert Unfinished though of course they tend to be entirely rehashes of Rosamunde music.

[RichardB]

Am I to understand that you prefer the substitute final movement of Op. 130 to the Grosse Fuge in the context of the other 5 movements?

You are not, as I've pointed out on many occasions!

[cloughie]

There are lots of good things to hear in the Rattle recording of the fourth movement - but I find it not much more convincing as completions of the Schubert Unfinished though of course they tend to be entirely rehashes of Rosamunde music.

The Schubert Unfinished was wonderfully finished - why spoil two superb movements by adding spurious suggestions?

[Bryn]

The Schubert Unfinished was wonderfully finished - why spoil two superb movements by adding spurious suggestions?

Ah, so the two are not that comparable.

[RichardB]

Moving on to Schubert: I think "spurious suggestions" and "rehashes" is going much too far. There are reasons why the music from Rosamunde is chosen, to do with orchestration and tonality, which are quite convincing I think, and the material needs an absolute minimum of work to function as the third and fourth movements of the symphony. Plus it's authentic Schubert that isn't played very often - what's the problem?

[cloughie]

Ah, so the two are not that comparable.

Sorry you’ve lost me there - which two?

[Bryn]

Sorry you’ve lost me there - which two?

The alternative final movement Beethoven was called upon to substitute for the Grosse Fuge, and the putative alternative for the final movement for the 9th which Richard suggested he wished Beethoven had been called up on to compose.

[cloughie]

Moving on to Schubert: I think "spurious suggestions" and "rehashes" is going much too far. There are reasons why the music from Rosamunde is chosen, to do with orchestration and tonality, which are quite convincing I think, and the material needs an absolute minimum of work to function as the third and fourth movements of the symphony. Plus it's authentic Schubert that isn't played very often - what's the problem?

Nothing wrong with the music and maybe an attractive carbuncle but the ‘old friend’ seems fine on its own as it has been for so many of my listening years.

[cloughie]

The alternative final movement Beethoven was called upon to substitute for the Grosse Fuge, and the putative alternative for the final movement for the 9th which Richard suggested he wished Beethoven had been called up on to compose.

I was not referring to Beethoven!

[Barbirollians]

Moving on to Schubert: I think "spurious suggestions" and "rehashes" is going much too far. There are reasons why the music from Rosamunde is chosen, to do with orchestration and tonality, which are quite convincing I think, and the material needs an absolute minimum of work to function as the third and fourth movements of the symphony. Plus it's authentic Schubert that isn't played very often - what's the problem?

The Rosamunde music is nowhere near the level of inspiration to the first two movements in my opinion.

[Bryn]

I was not referring to Beethoven!

Sorry, I'm not getting enough sleep. It was intended as a response to Richar's #111, not your #112. I must have clicked on and quoted the wrong message.