BaL 19.03.22 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 9 in D minor

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That's a very fair point, but I don't necessarily want to hear a finale assembled by a committee after that wonderful slow movement. It's interesting to hear the material, but not necessarily as part of a complete performance of the symphony where it always seems anti-climactic to me. None of the recordings I most admire include it.

But if a recording includes a completed finale, there’s no obligation to listen to it. It would be different with a live performance, when it would be rude to walk out (though such etiquette doesn’t seem to apply in Scarborough Spa Grand Hall).

[mahlerfan]

But if a recording includes a completed finale, there’s no obligation to listen to it. It would be different with a live performance, when it would be rude to walk out (though such etiquette doesn’t seem to apply in Scarborough Spa Grand Hall).

It’s not as straight forward as that. A properly integrated performance of any completion will necessarily influence the way the first three movements are played, especially the adagio. For example, Rattle’s performance quite rightly (IMO) holds something back from the third movement. It’s not a recording I care for very much, by the way.

[kea]

Rattle's performance of the third movement is the main reason I do care for his recording more than others, for whatever reason.

I can't say I'm convinced by any of the finale completions in their entirety, but many of the individual ideas in the finale fragment are good, and I wouldn't ever dismiss it out of hand. For example the opening few pages are very good, especially the version chosen by the committee (Bruckner wrote out these pages in full score about five or six times, with wide variations in musical content; I have no idea if the version the committee chose is the final one, but it's certainly the best). Throughout the movement Bruckner at various points left very stark and minimal textures reminiscent of some of the more memorable revisions in the 8th Symphony, and which contrast oddly with attempts to fill in the not-fully-orchestrated segments in a more traditional Brucknerian style. I also don't think any of the various completions' final codas are convincing, especially not at the glacially slow tempos typically adopted for them. But honestly it may not be possible to successfully complete the movement in the manner we think Bruckner intended to, i.e., a 20 bar D major pedal, triple forte, combining rhythmic outlines of themes from all four movements. Not only does Bruckner's death change the context of the piece too much, but the content of the finale fragment makes this treatment feel forced.

(The finest original moment in the SMPC completion is their choice to have the combination of themes from all four movements take place at a point of maximum tension and dissonance, rather than a triumph, but the subsequent obligatory final tonic major pedal then feels especially unconvincing.)

[Alison]

Not desperately keen on Mr Mival as a library builder.

[Barbirollians]

He doesn't tend to be overly swayed by the latest recordings unlike Tom Service - whose rave review of the Roth Bruckner 7 yesterday I could not quite understand . I recall he chose the LSO Previn for the Rachmaninov Second Symphony,

It seems RO and SJ have been permanently pensioned off - or perhaps they object to twofers.

[Darloboy]

Sterling effort, again, EA. Is there, however, any chance of indicating which recordings include one of other of the several completions of the final movent? I know of the Yalmi, Rozhdestvensky, Widner, Bosch, Rattle and Schaller recordings but which others are there to be considered?

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, there's a list of every recording ever made of each version of the finale: https://www.abruckner.com/discograph...nyno9indmino2/

[Bryn]

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, there's a list of every recording ever made of each version of the finale: https://www.abruckner.com/discograph...nyno9indmino2/

Thanks, I have a good few of those. I like the way Gerd Schaller has not only performed and recorded at least one of Carragan's competitions but also made and recorded his own. As with Mahler's 10th, I feel "the more the merrier" applies when it comes to conjectural completions.

[richardfinegold]

Sterling effort, again, EA. Is there, however, any chance of indicating which recordings include one of other of the several completions of the final movent? I know of the Yalmi, Rozhdestvensky, Widner, Bosch, Rattle and Schaller recordings but which others are there to be considered?

I was wondering how many posts it would take before the thread began to have 3-4 movement controversy as it’s fulcrum. My prediction was 6 posts and was happy to see that we made it all the way to 9.
I think the completion by committee is a bad joke after such intensely moving and spiritual music. B9 was the first of Brucknerian music to really hook me, and it took 3 recordings, the last being Wand with the NDR, to do it. Someone else has derided the acoustic in that recording as cavernous, but it’s a huge space with long reverberations and one can tell that Wand is shaping the music to account for it. I am so glad that I grew attached to the work before I heard that mash up of a finale. Enjoy what Satie may have labeled the Finale Bureaucratique if you must

[gurnemanz]

I had lived happily with the 3 mvt version for 50 years since getting an LP of Walter/CSO, through to my latest addition, Venzago. I've just listened to Schaller on Spotify. Interesting to hear what seems like a good job of work, but I don't think I need it.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I was wondering how many posts it would take before the thread began to have 3-4 movement controversy as it’s fulcrum. My prediction was 6 posts and was happy to see that we made it all the way to 9.
I think the completion by committee is a bad joke after such intensely moving and spiritual music. B9 was the first of Brucknerian music to really hook me, and it took 3 recordings, the last being Wand with the NDR, to do it. Someone else has derided the acoustic in that recording as cavernous, but it’s a huge space with long reverberations and one can tell that Wand is shaping the music to account for it. I am so glad that I grew attached to the work before I heard that mash up of a finale. Enjoy what Satie may have labeled the Finale Bureaucratique if you must

Re. completions, whether by committee or not, has anyone done a completion of those 'incomplete' works such as Michelangelo's David? The case of B9 rather puts me in mind of that sort of thing followed by various bods saying it now has to be the accepted version. I appreciate that as an analogy this is a little crass, but I'm happy to be shot down - sorry, I mean shot at - at least by considered opinions.

[Bryn]

Re. completions, whether by committee or not, has anyone done a completion of those 'incomplete' works such as Michelangelo's David? The case of B9 rather puts me in mind of that sort of thing followed by various bods saying it now has to be the accepted version. I appreciate that as an analogy this is a little crass, but I'm happy to be shot down - sorry, I mean shot at - at least by considered opinions.

I find it difficult to work out quite what you are treating with here. Are the "various bods" arguing for the drafts of just the first 3-movements (bearing in mind Bruckner's penchant for revision) or one of the several putative 4-movement 'completions'? If the latter, which of them? As to Michelangelo's David, in what way is it incomplete? Is it the lack of a fig leaf you are thinking of?

[CallMePaul]

I will miss this one (and also the following week's), as I will be boarding a flight to Fuerteventura when the BAL is in progress. I have the Jochum Dresden as part of the box set, also an LP of the Walter/ Columbia SO recording. I would be interested to hear one or more of the finale completions but am unsure whether I want to add one to my collection.

[RichardB]

The case of B9 rather puts me in mind of that sort of thing followed by various bods saying it now has to be the accepted version.

I don't think anyone's saying that anything needs to be "the" accepted version - people are just laying out their reasons for preferring one or another.

In preparation for going to see Mario Venzago conducting the locals on Friday (Wagner, Schumann, Honegger, Jost and Bach/Stokowski, a really weird programme) I listened to his Bruckner 6 and 9 today. I like the idea of what he's doing, but for me it doesn't quite come off. If you're using a smaller orchestra and faster tempi than are customary these days you need to have extra precision as well, and this he doesn't seem to have - for example the scherzo of no.9 should be really powerful at the tempo he uses, but the brass attacks are lacking in bite which somehow defeats the object of it, as I hear it anyway. Venzago's approach comes off better in the earlier symphonies.

[Bryn]

As an aside, there are two Profil boxed sets. One has the 11 symphonies (with two 4-movement performing versions of the 9th, by Carragan and by Schaller) + Mass No. 3. Psalm 146 and organ works. The other "Anton Bruckner - The Collection" presents the complete surviving works (including the incomplete 3-movement version of the 9th, conducted by Wand + Schaller's 4-movement performing version of the 9th). Symphonies 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and the 4-movement version of the 9th are the very same recordings in both sets.

[gurnemanz]

Just listened again to Bernstein/NYPO. The Ninth was the only one he recorded. (The only other symphony he performed was 6.) When asked about his Bruckner aversion, he rejected the Mahler-looking-for-God versus Bruckner-finding-God thesis, saying instead that AB lacked orgasms. His version won't win BaL but I still enjoyed the ride.