BaL 19.03.22 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 9 in D minor

[RichardB]

Bruckner did his best to complete it himself but did not quite make it.

I don't really agree that he "didn't quite make it". Sure, there is a lot of material available so some might assume it was almost finished apart from a few missing passages, but it seems equally likely to me that he didn't see any of this material as providing the kind of conclusion to the work he needed. Of course I don't have any proof of this, except to say that in my opinion the completions that exist don't in any way measure up to the music of the preceding three movements (or to Bruckner's other finales), so that the work is much more powerful ending with the Adagio rather than with this meandering, unmemorable and unconvincing ending. Like Petrushka, I've made my choice after listening and careful consideration. I don't care who's performing it or whether some new subtle touch has been added, the problem is more fundamental than that.

Also like Petrushka, this composition has too much importance to me for it to be encapsulated in a single recorded performance. The ones I have been listening to most are Giulini (VPO), Abbado (Lucerne) and Celibidache (Munich). Celi's recording is supplemented by some interesting rehearsal material.

[cloughie]

CAO/Van Beinum - I agree with Petrushka - 3 mvts good enough for me!

[Petrushka]

Thanks for the list, EA, but shouldn’t there be two Concertgebouw/Haitink (1965 and 1981)? The later one might only be available as a download.

The 1981 recording is available as a Presto CD as well as a download. The 1965 recording appears to be download only but has been included in various boxes and as a Philips Duo coupled with the 1st Symphony. When the inevitable Haitink/Concertgebouw box eventually appears (hopefully in my lifetime) no doubt both will be included!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Thanks for the list, EA, but shouldn’t there be two Concertgebouw/Haitink (1965 and 1981)?

Probably. Listings are not always helpful in this respect.

Also, I think it's quite likely that there are more Jochum versions than those listed.

[Wolfram]

What a shame. Bruckner did his best to complete it himself but did not quite make it. All the 'completions' I have heard share the vast majority of material, it being mainly the final section that calls most for informed invention. With so many editions of his various symphonies, it seems strange to me that one would dismiss attempts to present what he left, in an assimilable form, of the final movement of his 4-movement final symphony, especially as it cannot truly be said that he completed what would have been final versions of the other three movements. He was, after all, an inveterate reviser.

This is a very good point. As just about every musicologist and his dog at some point has had a go at producing versions of what they think Bruckner really intended to write in his symphonies, completing the final few minutes of the finale of the 9th would seem pretty innocuous. We have become used to hearing the 9th as a three movement structure. I'm no expert, but I believe that Bruckner intended an underlying theologoical argument in his later symphonies and would never have considered the work to be whole without its final movement. For that reason alone I think it is important to hear how the finale might have sounded, imperfect as that may be.

There was an intesting recording by Harnoncourt, of all people, with the VPO on RCA which included a workshop on the surving material which nolonger appears to be available.

[RichardB]

For that reason alone I think it is important to hear how the finale might have sounded, imperfect as that may be.

For sure it ought to be heard, and I remember thinking that in Rattle's recording the first three movements were approached in a different way than they might have been with no finale, which almost convinced me it was a good idea to play a "completed" fourth movement. I think Bruckner was having massive problems making the fourth movement really continue and complete his "underlying theological argument" as you call it, and simply hadn't got there with the movement as it now stands, not because it isn't quite complete but because it seems to be lacking in the necessary level of inspiration, and Bruckner realised that this was the case.

Currentzis performs the three movements followed by Ligeti's Lontano which I think is a brilliant idea. I'm not that keen on Currentzis as a conductor but I've "put together" this version using recordings I do have, and I find it a much more satisfying ending than the reconstruction. Not all will agree I dare say.

[antongould]

For sure it ought to be heard, and I remember thinking that in Rattle's recording the first three movements were approached in a different way than they might have been with no finale, which almost convinced me it was a good idea to play a "completed" fourth movement. I think Bruckner was having massive problems making the fourth movement really continue and complete his "underlying theological argument" as you call it, and simply hadn't got there with the movement as it now stands, not because it isn't quite complete but because it seems to be lacking in the necessary level of inspiration, and Bruckner realised that this was the case.

Currentzis performs the three movements followed by Ligeti's Lontano which I think is a brilliant idea. I'm not that keen on Currentzis as a conductor but I've "put together" this version using recordings I do have, and I find it a much more satisfying ending than the reconstruction. Not all will agree I dare say.

I love the Rattle reconstruction …. but what do I know …. ????

[Barbirollians]

This is a very good point. As just about every musicologist and his dog at some point has had a go at producing versions of what they think Bruckner really intended to write in his symphonies, completing the final few minutes of the finale of the 9th would seem pretty innocuous. We have become used to hearing the 9th as a three movement structure. I'm no expert, but I believe that Bruckner intended an underlying theologoical argument in his later symphonies and would never have considered the work to be whole without its final movement. For that reason alone I think it is important to hear how the finale might have sounded, imperfect as that may be.

There was an intesting recording by Harnoncourt, of all people, with the VPO on RCA which included a workshop on the surving material which nolonger appears to be available.

I also very much admire the Rattle completion recording.

My favourites are

Walter, Wand ( BPO) but probably most of all on an off air recording of the 2001 Prom , 1976 Karajan, Furtwangler 1944 , Cleveland/Dohnanyi and Abbado.

[Bryn]

I love the Rattle reconstruction …. but what do I know …. ????

The completion used by Rattle is the 'final' one by Samale, Mazzuca, Phillips and Cohrs, not Rattle himself. For my part, I think Dausgaard and the BBCSSO made better fists of it, as broadcast from both Glasgow and Edinburg on Radio 3. Of the completions I have heard, I find the most recent by Carragan and by Schaller to be prefered.

[mahlerfan]

I have the finale 'completion' on Rattle's CD but it is on nothing like the same level of inspiration as the rest of the symphony, sounding more to me like early Bruckner. I am happy to listen to it as a stand alone piece but as a finale to the Symphony No 9 it simply doesn't work. The three movements as they stand constitute a deeply satisfying experience and is better left, and heard, that way. Anyone else is free to have a different opinion but my choice is made.

I too have a preference for the 3 Mvt version. Of the many recordings of the completions that I have, I find the Kurt Eichhorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz by far the most satisfying, no question.

[Wolfram]

I also very much admire the Rattle completion recording.

My favourites are

Walter, Wand ( BPO) but probably most of all on an off air recording of the 2001 Prom , 1976 Karajan, Furtwangler 1944 , Cleveland/Dohnanyi and Abbado.

If I remember correctly the Gramophone review of the original Dohnanyi release described it as being something like a painting by an old master that had been cleaned up and revealed in fresh new colours. I played it yesterday and that description still rings true now. I always thought Karajan's live Bruckner recordings with the VPO were better than the studio recordings with the BPO. But the sound on that 1976 recording rules it out for me. I think I prefer Wand's 1993 live recording to the one from Berlin. I haven't listened to the earlier one from Lubeck for a while. If I remember the acoustic is quite cavernous.

[Bryn]

I too have a preference for the 3 Mvt version. Of the many recordings of the completions that I have, I find the Kurt Eichhorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz by far the most satisfying, no question.

Again, a Samale, Mazzuca, Phillips and Cohrs completion, rather than one by Eichhorn.

[mahlerfan]

Again, a Samale, Mazzuca, Phillips and Cohrs completion, rather than one by Eichhorn.

Recordings of the completions, I said.

Eichhorn hasn’t made a reconstruction, as we both well know.

[makropulos]

I think it is important to hear how the finale might have sounded, imperfect as that may be.

That's a very fair point, but I don't necessarily want to hear a finale assembled by a committee after that wonderful slow movement. It's interesting to hear the material, but not necessarily as part of a complete performance of the symphony where it always seems anti-climactic to me. None of the recordings I most admire include it. Favourites include:

Jochum/BPO (DG)
Jochum/Dresden (EMI/Warner)
Matacic/Czech PO (Supraphon)
Giulini/VPO (DG)
Bruno Walter/Columbia SO
Wand/South-West German Radio SO, live at Ottobeuren (Profil)

[Bryn]

Recordings of the completions, I said.

Eichhorn hasn’t made a reconstruction, as we both well know.

You and I may well know, but we are not the only ones reading your message, which was open to an alternative interpretation to that which you now clarify. After all, Schaller has recorded both a Carragan and his own completion, both of which I find more appealing than any of the completions to which Samale, Mazzuca, Phillips and/or Cohrs have contributed, though I also think those better than nothing.