BaL 12.02.22 - Ravel: Daphnis & Chloé

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't think I've ever heard the complete ballet score. Something I must get. There used to be quite a discussion about Boulez conducting Debussy, Ravel and the like. Many thought there ought to be an analogy with Impressionist art, i.e. everything a bit wishy-washy and blurred. Boulez, with his incredible ear and attention brought a clarity and precision which not everyone liked. I certainly liked it in what we heard today. Mind you, perhaps one ought to value Pierre Monteux...what an amazing thing to have conducted Ravel and Stravinsky fresh off the page and still to be conducting in the 1960s when I was a student.

Just a couple of things to add. Obvious really, but I've always thought what amazingly original use of orchestral instruments Ravel made both singly and in combination. Adding the wordless chorus to Daphnis and Chloe was a master stroke.
The next is a bit of a petty niggle. Jeremy Sams mentionrd an instruction in the score, "Voix lointains", but it should surely be "Voix lointaines" ? Otherwise his French sounded OK.

I think I must have heard the complete score as I’ve seen the complete ballet. Done by Birmingham Royal Ballet. It’s a curiously unsatisfying affair (as a ballet ) something it has in common with both The Firebird and The Rite Of Spring . I don’t think there’s enough rhythm in it to give the dancers something to get into - a mistake that Tschaikovky never makes. Also the magnificent score doesn’t lend itself to the cutdown pit orchestra that the BRB have. But then we are spoilt by so many excellent recordings.

[Darloboy]

I think I must have heard the complete score as I’ve seen the complete ballet. Done by Birmingham Royal Ballet. It’s a curiously unsatisfying affair (as a ballet ) something it has in common with both The Firebird and The Rite Of Spring . I don’t think there’s enough rhythm in it to give the dancers something to get into - a mistake that Tschaikovky never makes. Also the magnificent score doesn’t lend itself to the cutdown pit orchestra that the BRB have. But then we are spoilt by so many excellent recordings.

Funnily enough, I was just wondering why BaL reviewers almost never make DVD/Blu Ray recommendations for ballet scores...

[LHC]

Funnily enough, I was just wondering why BaL reviewers almost never make DVD/Blu Ray recommendations for ballet scores...

With ballet performances you would simply be introducing another set of non-musical variables, such as production, choreography, preferences for individual dancers etc that would only serve to complicate the choice even further.

I think it’s hardly ever performed as a ballet, and tellingly I don’t think there is a single version available on video, DVD or Blu-ray.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Funnily enough, I was just wondering why BaL reviewers almost never make DVD/Blu Ray recommendations for ballet scores...

Pity as there’s a superb current ROH Swan Lake DVD and many excellent (Macmillan ) Romeo and Juliets…

[Bryn]

With ballet performances you would simply be introducing another set of non-musical variables, such as production, choreography, preferences for individual dancers etc that would only serve to complicate the choice even further.

I think it’s hardly ever performed as a ballet, and tellingly I don’t think there is a single version available on video, DVD or Blu-ray.

Though there is one on Medici tv. I was not very taken with what connection there was between story ad well-executed choreography.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If you really are desperate...

https://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Daphnis-Chloe-complete-ballet/dp/B000ARSM30

[ardcarp]

It’s a curiously unsatisfying affair (as a ballet ) something it has in common with both The Firebird and The Rite Of Spring . I don’t think there’s enough rhythm in it to give the dancers something to get into - a mistake that Tschaikovky never makes.

Hardly fair to compare, for instance, The Rite of Spring with the more classical Ballet scores such as Tschaik's. The Ballet Russe's Rite was especially revolutionary in its use of body shapes and body-language. (Some called it ugly, I believe.) But of course it is irregularly barred throughout, and is something of a conducting super-task*. Ballet choreographers/masters usually call out numbers to get their dancers co-ordinated in rehearsal, and traditionally the numbers were multiples of 2, 3 or 4 so as to coincide with regular barring. There are stories of such people reeling off 13, 17 and so on to get The Rite right! I've never seen Daphnis and Chloe danced, but I guess one would not expect ballet-dancers to be executing their movements in strict 'time to the music' as there often is no explicit 'beat'.

*I once saw Hugo Rignold (a long-standing past conductor of the CBSO) get lost in a concert performance of The Rite of Spring.

[richardfinegold]

The Monteux cannot be nla surely ?

I just pulled my “Decca Sound” box open and its Disc#35, paired with the Enigma Variations. However, I am currently listening to Pristine Audio disc PASC643 which features Monteux conducting Suite #2 with the NBC SO in a concert from 1937. However, I am assuming the quote above refers to the Decca recording from the LSO.
I note parenthetically that I was unaware of the existence of the “winner” until reading this thread and I listened to it on Qobuz earlier today. I don’t know if it is “the best”—a ridiculous concept for such oft recorded music-but it was pretty damn good. Boulez has always struck me as a musician who provides tremendous clarity while avoiding emotional sterility

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hardly fair to compare, for instance, The Rite of Spring with the more classical Ballet scores such as Tschaik's. The Ballet Russe's Rite was especially revolutionary in its use of body shapes and body-language. (Some called it ugly, I believe.) But of course it is irregularly barred throughout, and is something of a conducting super-task*. Ballet choreographers/masters usually call out numbers to get their dancers co-ordinated in rehearsal, and traditionally the numbers were multiples of 2, 3 or 4 so as to coincide with regular barring. There are stories of such people reeling off 13, 17 and so on to get The Rite right! I've never seen Daphnis and Chloe danced, but I guess one would not expect ballet-dancers to be executing their movements in strict 'time to the music' as there often is no explicit 'beat'.

*I once saw Hugo Rignold (a long-standing past conductor of the CBSO) get lost in a concert performance of The Rite of Spring.

I’m not comparing choreography. I’m looking at how the score works in the total context of the ballet. It’s a nice problem to have but in both D and C and R of S the score is almost too big for the work. The “plot” of D and C is thin and doesn’t engage. The music overwhelms it. Although the production I saw was very well danced it didn’t have the emotional impact that happens when gesture , movement and music achieve some sort of unity or telling disunity even . It’s not a question of being in strict time to the beat - it’s just that for sections there is a wash of sound and it’s hard to create a dance picture that fits. It doesn’t move along - not a problem with Rite Of Spring though.
Of course Rite of Spring doesn’t lack rhythm. I didn’t have a problem with the “modernity “ of the choreography as I used to go to a lot of contemporary dance and this is now pretty much at the conservative end these days . I think the original riot was more over the dance aspect than the music precisely because of its then shocking nature. Again maybe it’s because the visceral emotional impact of the music is so great the dance doesn’t add much. It doesn’t get performed a lot.

[LHC]

I’m not comparing choreography. I’m looking at how the score works in the total context of the ballet. It’s a nice problem to have but in both D and C and R of S the score is almost too big for the work. The “plot” of D and C is thin and doesn’t engage. The music overwhelms it. Although the production I saw was very well danced it didn’t have the emotional impact that happens when gesture , movement and music achieve some sort of unity or telling disunity even . It’s not a question of being in strict time to the beat - it’s just that for sections there is a wash of sound and it’s hard to create a dance picture that fits. It doesn’t move along - not a problem with Rite Of Spring though.
Of course Rite of Spring doesn’t lack rhythm. I didn’t have a problem with the “modernity “ of the choreography as I used to go to a lot of contemporary dance and this is now pretty much at the conservative end these days . I think the original riot was more over the dance aspect than the music precisely because of its then shocking nature. Again maybe it’s because the visceral emotional impact of the music is so great the dance doesn’t add much. It doesn’t get performed a lot.

There is an interesting DVD/Blu Ray of the Rite of Spring with the Mariinsky and Gergiev which includes a reconstruction of the original performance, making use of both the original choreography by Nijinsky (or as close as they are able to get) and the original sets and costumes by Nicholas Roerich. You can certainly see how challenging it would have been to the original audience from this performance.

I have seen Rite of Spring at Covent Garden and the MacMillan production comes over pretty well, but you are right that its not done that frequently. DeC, RoS and Stravinsky's other ballets are all far more popular in the concert hall than in the theatre.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There is an interesting DVD/Blu Ray of the Rite of Spring with the Mariinsky and Gergiev which includes a reconstruction of the original performance, making use of both the original choreography by Nijinsky (or as close as they are able to get) and the original sets and costumes by Nicholas Roerich. You can certainly see how challenging it would have been to the original audience from this performance.

I have seen Rite of Spring at Covent Garden and the MacMillan production comes over pretty well, but you are right that its not done that frequently. DeC, RoS and Stravinsky's other ballets are all far more popular in the concert hall than in the theatre.

Sometimes I wonder whether the lack of Rites is because the orchestra costs (including rehearsal time ) are high and then the question what to programme with it. I think it’s possibly because ballet audiences want virtuoso solo / pas de Deux dancing and this work (IIRC) doesn’t really provide that …

[LHC]

Sometimes I wonder whether the lack of Rites is because the orchestra costs (including rehearsal time ) are high and then the question what to programme with it. I think it’s possibly because ballet audiences want virtuoso solo / pas de Deux dancing and this work (IIRC) doesn’t really provide that …

At Covent Garden its usually done as part of a triple bill of 1 Act ballets, which may only serve to increase the demands on the performers.

Looking at the Covent Garden database, its been performed about 80 times since the production was premiered in 1962, but the last time it was put on was in 2013. There was also a long gap in performances between 1987 and 2005, so it does seem to fall in and out of favour.

Edited to add by way of comparison:

Daphnis et Chloe - 96 performances since 1951, but none since 1996

Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev) - over 500 performances.

[Ein Heldenleben]

At Covent Garden its usually done as part of a triple bill of 1 Act ballets, which may only serve to increase the demands on the performers.

Looking at the Covent Garden database, its been performed about 80 times since the production was premiered in 1962, but the last time it was put on was in 2013. There was also a long gap in performances between 1987 and 2005, so it does seem to fall in and out of favour.

Edited to add by way of comparison:

Daphnis et Chloe - 96 performances since 1951, but none since 1996

Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev) - over 500 performances.

That’s a fascinating analysis. I hope the Macmillan estate is on a royalty deal. What’s the Rite usually tripled with - other Stravinsky ?

[richardfinegold]

Daphnis was one of the first pieces that I was exposed to when I became interested in Classical Music. My sister had the Toscanini/NBC lp of Pictures At an Exhibition and Act II of Daphnis was the filler. The sounds were enticing then but it wasn't until I first heard it live a few years later, with Barenboim leading the Orchestra de Paris, where the beginning of that Suite transported me.

[LHC]

That’s a fascinating analysis. I hope the Macmillan estate is on a royalty deal. What’s the Rite usually tripled with - other Stravinsky ?

I can't remember what the other ballets were when I saw it, but I'm pretty sure neither were by Stravinsky (and the Covent Garden database doesn't help on this front).

When it was last performed in 2013 the other ballets were Wayne McGregor's Chroma and a new ballet by David Dawson, The Human Seasons.