BaL 8.01.22 - Prokofiev: Symphony No 5 in B-flat major

[MickyD]

Looks like a veritable treasure trove there. I have Neeme Järvi, on Chandos, as part of his cycle. I have others too. Must hear this again.

I have the Jarvi cycle, too - love the Chandos sound.

[Bryn]

I have the Jarvi cycle, too - love the Chandos sound.

I recall searching out all the Prokofiev from that combination, back in the day, including the Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution, with none other than Gennady Nikolayevich Rozhdestvensky in the role of Lenin.

[Barbirollians]

I recall searching out all the Prokofiev from that combination, back in the day, including the Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution, with none other than Gennady Nikolayevich Rozhdestvensky in the role of Lenin.

The SNO/Jarvi Alexander Nevsky is terrific.

[Bryn]

The SNO/Jarvi Alexander Nevsky is terrific.

Indeed.Up there with Abbado and Ancerl, though given the xenophobia reflected in Brexit, perhaps we should all plump for Reiner's recording, in (American) English.

[jayne lee wilson]

Listening back to the LSO/Gergiev, I was struck by the idiomatic flow to the musical expression - movement and melody, sound and sense. There's an extra manic, wild edge to the rhythms and attack in (ii) and (iv), so the contrast between 1st and 3rd moderato or slow movements, then the scherzo/finale pair, and the thematic links within them, is the more acutely drawn. Then the dynamic impact of brass and percussion (and tremendous bass texture and power) is keener and more Russian. (Petrushka - you won't be disappointed)...the conclusion of the finale has a mechanistic ferocity to leave any listener wondering... what happened to that triumphalist spirit? (And quite devastated of course...)

In this case at least, it seems to have made a significant difference to play all the symphonies live, across a single week. The 5th takes its place there, especially in its close relations to 6 and 7 (see above).
There is a danger with European 5ths (and Szell too) that, with less Prokofievian experience beyond 1 and 5, Ballet Suites and the 3rd Piano Concerto, they can become more of a display piece, a Concerto for Orchestra.You need the saturation, the deep-dive into the style.
I'll revisit Karajan soon but I recall when I first heard Cologne/Kitajenko (the complete cycle is excellent), I felt it offered all Karajan and his orchestra did, but in even more spectacular and luxurious sound.

But next up has to be Karabits, one of the best cycles of all....(and like Gergiev, a stunning No.2 The Barrett should know about..)...

[richardfinegold]

Listening back to the LSO/Gergiev, I was struck by the idiomatic flow to the musical expression - movement and melody, sound and sense. There's an extra manic, wild edge to the rhythms and attack in (ii) and (iv), so the contrast between 1st and 3rd moderato or slow movements, then the scherzo/finale pair, and the thematic links within them, is the more acutely drawn. Then the dynamic impact of brass and percussion (and tremendous bass texture and power) is keener and more Russian. (Petrushka - you won't be disappointed)...the conclusion of the finale has a mechanistic ferocity to leave any listener wondering... what happened to that triumphalist spirit? (And quite devastated of course...)

In this case at least, it seems to have made a significant difference to play all the symphonies live, across a single week. The 5th takes its place there, especially in its close relations to 6 and 7 (see above).
There is a danger with European 5ths (and Szell too) that, with less Prokofievian experience beyond 1 and 5, Ballet Suites and the 3rd Piano Concerto, they can become more of a display piece, a Concerto for Orchestra.You need the saturation, the deep-dive into the style.
I'll revisit Karajan soon but I recall when I first heard Cologne/Kitajenko (the complete cycle is excellent), I felt it offered all Karajan and his orchestra did, but in even more spectacular and luxurious sound.

But next up has to be Karabits, one of the best cycles of all....(and like Gergiev, a stunning No.2 The Barrett should know about..)...

I don’t think performers need to have performed every work in a given cycle in order to be able to effectively convey the work at hand. We certainly don’t expect an ensemble to have played every work of Telemann to make an effective concert of a few morsels. Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer were Mahler disciples who both studiously avoided performing Seventh Symphony.
At any rate, I’m listening to Jascha Horenstein play this on Pristine Audio, a mono recording from the fifties. Tremendous energy and elan. My new favorite

[jayne lee wilson]

I don’t think performers need to have performed every work in a given cycle in order to be able to effectively convey the work at hand. We certainly don’t expect an ensemble to have played every work of Telemann to make an effective concert of a few morsels. Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer were Mahler disciples who both studiously avoided performing Seventh Symphony.
At any rate, I’m listening to Jascha Horenstein play this on Pristine Audio, a mono recording from the fifties. Tremendous energy and elan. My new favorite

Telemann is a very poor analogy, as his vast oeuvre is not remotely comparable to 20th Century Symphonic Cycles, where style and idiom, local cultural and musical meanings and traditions and very present dramatic and often traumatic history, are an essential part of the music's depth and impact. The works within such cycles are closely related and often autobiographical.

Telemann gleefully and playfully borrowed from a dazzling range of European styles and formal models, over 600 works written for Courts where he served as Kappell- or Konzert-meister...
All the same, the more Telemann you perform in its complete forms (not just "morsels" whatever that means), the better you'll perform it, as is borne out by many specialist Baroque groups and conductors from Harnoncourt to Zefiro; I can hardly see this as a controversial principle even when more generally applied.

To "effectively convey" a work is not the same as playing it with innate understanding borne of contextual study and performance of the composer's wider catalogue. Getting it into the blood, the heartbeat. Prokofiev has tended to suffer from selective performance of his pop-classics (ballet suites, Piano Concerto 3, Symphonies 1&5 etc).

So with the Prokofiev 5th a great deal can be learned and understood by listening to the two versions of the 4th Symphony, 1930 and 1947, one well before the 5th, one after. Just as your grasp of the 6th and 7th is much deeper once you've recognised the close links (and significant differences) between their respective finales. Then when you hear the 5th's finale after that....
Most Russian Conductors (Gergiev, Karabits, Kitajenko, Rozh) play Prokofiev with a deeper understanding of the idiom, the very sound of it, but above all of the appalling pressures under which artists worked at the time. As I said in #14, the 7th is an extraordinarily ambiguous, veiled and tragic masterpiece, shot through with references back, not least to his ballets Cinderella and Romeo and Juliet.

Once you've heard how Gergiev brings out the bass response of Prokofiev's orchestra in the LSO Cycle, in depth, texture and dynamism, makes it an essential part of the musical message, no other cycle will quite sound the same again. Utterly compelling.....the medium becomes the message.

****

Otto Klemperer recorded the Mahler 7th with the New Philharmonia, famously or infamously, in a startlingly idiosyncratic reading around 100' long. You may find it tedious or phantasmagorical in its vast tempi and starkly transparent detail, according to your temperament. I incline to the (wide-eyed) phantasmagorical view, though I'm not sure how often I could repeat such an experience.

Everyone should hear it at least once......you may need a drink or two to make it through.......

[Barbirollians]

I don’t think performers need to have performed every work in a given cycle in order to be able to effectively convey the work at hand. We certainly don’t expect an ensemble to have played every work of Telemann to make an effective concert of a few morsels. Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer were Mahler disciples who both studiously avoided performing Seventh Symphony.
At any rate, I’m listening to Jascha Horenstein play this on Pristine Audio, a mono recording from the fifties. Tremendous energy and elan. My new favorite

Walter did but Klemperer recorded the Seventh ???

Oh I see JLW already mentioned this. Walter of course only recorded 1,2,4,5 and 9 and Das Lied. Apparently, there were plans for him to re-record the Fifth when he died.

[RichardB]

I listened to the Karabits no.2 this morning, thanks Jayne - raw and colourful, reminded me of Järvi more than anything else. What the Russian conductors seem to be alive to is that there's more expression to be wrung out of the notes than might seem to be the case, but of course if I or anyone else from the West can see that, then any Western conductor also can.

[Darloboy]

Yes, you're right, Weller was chosen by Geoffrey Norris back in November 1979. Incidentally its coupling of the Classical Symphony was Peter Paul Nash's first choice in May 99

The symphony appears to have been covered a lot by BaL over the years - 1961, 1964, 1968, 1972, 1979, 1988, 1998, 2012 and now 2022.

As for subsequent programmes, I'm afraid I don't know what the first choice was in 1988 (Paul Griffiths). In March 1998 Edward Seckerson chose the LSO conducted by Tilson-Thomas. And as has already been pointed out, Geoffrey Norris chose Karajan when he reviewed the recordings again in April 2012.

As it's M F-W this time round, I think there's a strong chance that she'll go for a Russian conductor; although she did choose Karajan for the Pathétique.

For completeness, I'll add that BaL did a programme entitled 'The Anniversary Year on Record' presented by David Nice in December 1991 (the centenary year of Prokofiev's birth), in which he reviewed 19 Prokofiev recordings. For the orchestral music, he included the Järvi complete symphony cycle on Chandos; Muti's recording of Symphony No. 5 with the Philadelphia SO; and Tampere PO/Grin's recording of Symphony No. 2.

[HighlandDougie]

Walter did but Klemperer recorded the Seventh ???

Oh I see JLW already mentioned this.

Interestingly - or maybe not - Klemperer conducted the 7th in 1922 then didn't conduct it again until 1968. RFH - somewhat lukewarmly received - and presumably coinciding with the EMI recording. As RFG implied in an earlier post, he had "reservations" about the two outer movements so avoided it for all those years.

Anyway, back to Prokofiev, I like the Jim Gaffigan/Netherlands RPO cycle on Challenge Classics largely on account of the excellent recording quality. The 5th is very good (but I still prefer the 6th Symphony as a piece of music). Great music for "tuning" the sub-woofer!

[cloughie]

Interestingly - or maybe not - Klemperer conducted the 7th in 1922 then didn't conduct it again until 1968. RFH - somewhat lukewarmly received - and presumably coinciding with the EMI recording. As RFG implied in an earlier post, he had "reservations" about the two outer movements so avoided it for all those years.

Anyway, back to Prokofiev, I like the Jim Gaffigan/Netherlands RPO cycle on Challenge Classics largely on account of the excellent recording quality. The 5th is very good (but I still prefer the 6th Symphony as a piece of music). Great music for "tuning" the sub-woofer!

Has any composer got better bass lines than Serge Prokofiev?

[cloughie]

I don’t think performers need to have performed every work in a given cycle in order to be able to effectively convey the work at hand. We certainly don’t expect an ensemble to have played every work of Telemann to make an effective concert of a few morsels. Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer were Mahler disciples who both studiously avoided performing Seventh Symphony.
At any rate, I’m listening to Jascha Horenstein play this on Pristine Audio, a mono recording from the fifties. Tremendous energy and elan. My new favorite

Seriously off-topic but I’ve often wondered how the VCO or PH players (or members of any other orchestra that has tackled the marathon task) have maintained their professional musicianship throughout the task of playing their way through 104 A B SC and any alternative movements of the Haydn Symphonies.

[jayne lee wilson]

Has any composer got better bass lines than Serge Prokofiev?

That's the point I was making in #37, specifically about the LSO/Gergiev.... outstanding in this respect...
More on the Klemperer Mahler 7 here.....

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?9095-Mahler-7&p=869698#post869698

Do seek out Ed Greenfield's classic 9/69 from-all-angles review, it is fascinating!

Currently considering Karabits and Karajan in the Prok 5.... hopefully Rattle and Kitajenko later....

[Bryn]

I listened to the Alsop yesterday. Rather slow and ponderous. Certainly not from the joyful school. It was preceded by the much-criticised Year 1941 suite. Not Prokofiev's most inspired work, by a long way.