BaL 8.01.22 - Prokofiev: Symphony No 5 in B-flat major

**Barbirollians** · 18-12-21, 21:29

I have a soft spot for that live Rozhdestvensky recording on BBC legends as well as his MRSO account - otherwise - Kletzki, Karajan,Koussevitsky and SNO/Jarvi

**cloughie** · 18-12-21, 21:45

For me Prokofiev 5 stands head and shoulders above all his other symphonies - it seems to have everything a symphony needs to be the perfect 2nd half of a concert. No shortage of good recordings - from Tuxen way back, Rozhdestvensky, Jansons, Ansermet, Karajan, Maazel, Mravinsky …
Could be an interesting BaL

**Serial_Apologist** · 18-12-21, 22:41

Originally posted by cloughie View Post

For me Prokofiev 5 stands head and shoulders above all his other symphonies - it seems to have everything a symphony needs to be the perfect 2nd half of a concert. No shortage of good recordings - from Tuxen way back, Rozhdestvensky, Jansons, Ansermet, Karajan, Maazel, Mravinsky …
Could be an interesting BaL

Do you know No 6, which clips No 5 for me?

**cloughie** · 18-12-21, 22:44

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Do you know No 6, which clips No 5 for me?

Yes but I stand by what I said about 5!

**jayne lee wilson** · 19-12-21, 03:20

Originally posted by cloughie View Post

For me Prokofiev 5 stands head and shoulders above all his other symphonies - it seems to have everything a symphony needs to be the perfect 2nd half of a concert. No shortage of good recordings - from Tuxen way back, Rozhdestvensky, Jansons, Ansermet, Karajan, Maazel, Mravinsky …
Could be an interesting BaL

In a 2006 Gramophone interview Gergiev said he’d take a few bullets from a Kalashnikov and still claim the greatness of 2,3 and 4 with his last breath.....

..
I feel a similar passion for them (perhaps without the bullets....)...

You could see Prokofiev 5-7 as a War Trilogy - thesis-antithesis-synthesis of triumph, tragedy and bittersweet reflection. Rather like the DSCH 7-9, and perhaps with much of DSCH's undercutting ironies and ambiguities too. I still hear the Constructivist mécanique inspirations from No.2 (i) in the 5th's finale - often fiercely and explosively so, and the four movements are very contrasted.
Rather more to it than the "hymn to the pure and noble human spirit" Prokofiev evoked, a description one suspects was formulated for the satisfaction of agitprop.

I've been playing through my two favourite cycles, Bournemouth/Karabits and LSO/Gergiev in the last week or so, mainly 2-4; time to see how their 5ths come across........
They both have excellent sound (the Gergiev has an especially impressive bass response), a significant benefit given Prokofiev's wondrous orchestration..

**Bryn** · 19-12-21, 07:47

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

In a 2006 Gramophone interview Gergiev said he’d take a few bullets from a Kalashnikov and still claim the greatness of 2,3 and 4 with his last breath.....

..
I feel a similar passion for them (perhaps without the bullets....)...

You could see Prokofiev 5-7 as a War Trilogy - thesis-antithesis-synthesis of triumph, tragedy and bittersweet reflection. Rather like the DSCH 7-9, and perhaps with much of DSCH's undercutting ironies and ambiguities too. I still hear the Constructivist mécanique inspirations from No.2 (i) in the 5th's finale - often fiercely and explosively so, and the four movements are very contrasted.
Rather more to it than the "hymn to the pure and noble human spirit" Prokofiev evoked, a description one suspects was formulated for the satisfaction of agitprop.

I've been playing through my two favourite cycles, Bournemouth/Karabits and LSO/Gergiev in the last week or so, mainly 2-4; time to see how their 5ths come across........
They both have excellent sound (the Gergiev has an especially impressive bass response), a significant benefit given Prokofiev's wondrous orchestration..

While concurring re 2 to 4 (though which version of the 4th), I do not hear the 7th as a "war symphony", (original ending, please). Surely it was a reflection of his distinctly post-war turmoils under Zhdanov, and Prokofiev's declining health, such considerations despite Prokofiev's assertion that its inspiration was to write a work for children? The 5th and 6th, intertwined in their composition, were certainly conditioned by the "Great Patriotic War".

**MickyD** · 19-12-21, 09:29

I have no ability to discuss music in technical detail as many of you do on here. All I can say is that for someone who was mostly entrenched in 18th century music, hearing Prokofiev - and in particular this symphony - really opened my ears to music of the 20th. He grabbed me in a way that others failed to do.

**Petrushka** · 19-12-21, 09:41

I can recall a BaL many years ago in which Geoffrey Norris recommended the LSO/Walter Weller recording. Perhaps Darloboy can say if it's been done since.

The Weller is very good in typically fine Decca sound and I have that along with Previn, Rattle, Ashkenazy, Szell (Cleveland Orch), Jansons (RCO), Celibidache and Karajan.

My 'go to' recording has always been BPO/Karajan with those famous crashing tam-tam strokes which no-one else comes anywhere near to achieving, at least in the above versions I have. Whenever I listen to any other than the Karajan, I usually feel let down by the comparatively puny efforts at the tam-tam moments.

Karajan first choice for me.

**Barbirollians** · 19-12-21, 11:50

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

I can recall a BaL many years ago in which Geoffrey Norris recommended the LSO/Walter Weller recording. Perhaps Darloboy can say if it's been done since.

The Weller is very good in typically fine Decca sound and I have that along with Previn, Rattle, Ashkenazy, Szell (Cleveland Orch), Jansons (RCO), Celibidache and Karajan.

My 'go to' recording has always been BPO/Karajan with those famous crashing tam-tam strokes which no-one else comes anywhere near to achieving, at least in the above versions I have. Whenever I listen to any other than the Karajan, I usually feel let down by the comparatively puny efforts at the tam-tam moments.

Karajan first choice for me.

Rather appalled that Koussevitsky's first recording of the piece is apparently nla.

**richardfinegold** · 19-12-21, 11:59

Originally posted by cloughie View Post

Yes but I stand by what I said about 5!

I like the Sixth and the Fourth but agree that especially if I was attending a Concert the Fifth stands head and shoulders above all except “The Classical”. The Second for me is unlistenable, the Third and Seventh just don’t do much for me.
I wonder about “the Spirit of Man” thing. Did the Composer really mean that or was he being forced to say something positive to keep him in the good graces of the Komissars?
I remember sitting through a Concert performance in Detroit,guest conducted by Rhozdo, when I was home from University during the Holidays with my mother, perhaps the only time we attended a Concert together until very recently. She burst out “What a dour, depressive Russian” at the end. She likened him to Chekhov and Dostoyevsky and couldn’t stop complaining about Prokofiev all the way home (“I had to pay money to hear that!”). This of course immediately boosted my opinion of the work and I went to the local record store the next day to look for a budget recording, which turned out to be Ormandy. For years that was my only version until I bought Karajan on CD when that became a budget offering. The Levine/CSO ultimately supplanted that, paired with a marvelous Classical Symphony, and for the audiophile experience I added Litten /Bergen in SACD. I don’t think I have played any version for a couple of years now.

There are no shortage, again, of first rate recordings. My two favorites or Levine/CSO are

**silvestrione** · 19-12-21, 13:33

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

I can recall a BaL many years ago in which Geoffrey Norris recommended the LSO/Walter Weller recording. Perhaps Darloboy can say if it's been done since.

The Weller is very good in typically fine Decca sound and I have that along with Previn, Rattle, Ashkenazy, Szell (Cleveland Orch), Jansons (RCO), Celibidache and Karajan.

My 'go to' recording has always been BPO/Karajan with those famous crashing tam-tam strokes which no-one else comes anywhere near to achieving, at least in the above versions I have. Whenever I listen to any other than the Karajan, I usually feel let down by the comparatively puny efforts at the tam-tam moments.

Karajan first choice for me.

Surely it was done just the other day, and the Karajan was chosen?

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 19-12-21, 14:20

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

Rather appalled that Koussevitsky's first recording of the piece is apparently nla.

Amazon does seem to have one copy left (plus several used copies).

Symphony 1/5/Romeo & Juliet Suite 2: Amazon.co.uk: CDs & Vinyl

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prokofiev-Symphonies-1-Serge-Koussevitzky/dp/B000003FGR/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=prokofiev+symphony+5+koussevitzky&qid=1639923500&s=music&sr=1-1

Buy Symphony 1/5/Romeo & Juliet Suite 2 by Prokofiev, S. from Amazon's Classical Music Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

**jayne lee wilson** · 19-12-21, 15:55

Originally posted by Bryn View Post

While concurring re 2 to 4 (though which version of the 4th), I do not hear the 7th as a "war symphony", (original ending, please). Surely it was a reflection of his distinctly post-war turmoils under Zhdanov, and Prokofiev's declining health, such considerations despite Prokofiev's assertion that its inspiration was to write a work for children? The 5th and 6th, intertwined in their composition, were certainly conditioned by the "Great Patriotic War".

To quote myself a few years back:

"The subtle and enigmatic 7th is an iconic work for me. I find the last pages devastating, as the old musical magus, after looking back at a lifetime of dance, romance and fantasy (the shades of Cinderella and Romeo & Juliet seem often to pass across the symphony) accepts his fate in a twilit, stoical coda, grimly resigned at the end of his final haunting fairytale.

I’m surprised that the similarities between the finales of 6 and 7 aren’t remarked upon more often. Both begin with jaunty little tunes (just a little too jaunty) which soon become wilder and darker, spinning almost out of control before a stasis; a powerful climax on a main thematic idea is followed by a tragic coda: stark catastrophe in the 6th, gloomily funereal in No.7."

*****

AS for the 4th - both versions are marvellous, but you need more hearings to get to the heart the 1947 version. Its a highly elaborate modernist-constructivist symphony, all the more fascinating for using the same material as the tighter, wonderfully catchy neoclassical 1930 version. I can't get enough of either!

If anyone still finds the 2nd "unlistenable" (why? It has one of Prokofiev's most beautiful, lyrical and orchestrally imaginative creations for its 2nd Movement)
- you simply need topnotch sound, and a performance such as Gergiev and Karabits, which brings out the contrast, the light and shade in (i) which in the wrong hands can seem, or at least sound, relentless. And of course understand the references-back at the end of the work, so very moving as they are.

Remarkable piece, modelled on Beethoven's Op.111 .....and very worthy of it.

(I don't know if Prokofiev had heard Le Sacre du Printemps when he wrote the 2nd, but it has something of those starkly oppositional contrasts about it; seems to breathe similar air...)

**gurnemanz** · 19-12-21, 16:25

Originally posted by silvestrione View Post

Surely it was done just the other day, and the Karajan was chosen?

Karajan was chosen by Geoffrey Norris in 2012.

BaL 8.01.22 - Prokofiev: Symphony No 5 in B-flat major

BaL 8.01.22 - Prokofiev: Symphony No 5 in B-flat major

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