BaL 1.01.22 - Mozart: Piano Concerto no 20 in D minor K466

[Ein Heldenleben]

Cristofori died in 1731. His designs date from around 1700 or a little later. Hardly relevant to the present discussion.

Andras Schiff's most recent (widely-acclaimed) recordings of Schubert's Piano Music (for ECM) were recorded on a Brodmann from ca. 1820, and Schiff goes into great detail in the notes ("Confessions of a Convert") regarding the design of the instrument and its suitability for the music. His equally outstanding Brahms Piano Concerti with the OAE were played on an 1859 Bluthner, about which Schiff offers another, highly insightful essay regarding the keyboard design, Brahms' various keyboard preferences, contemporary orchestral forces and the smaller acoustics they were usually played in.

Those listeners here who keep offering caricatural dismissal of "fortepianos" need to do their homework, update their awareness of recordings and accept that the development of the piano is a continuous historical timeline (the first Bosendorfers were made in the late-1820s, in the former Brodmann workshop), with no sudden crude gulf before the modern Steinways or Yamahas etc were supposed to sweep everything aside. As I've already said the recent Brahms Violin Sonatas from Pritchin and Emelyanychev feature an 1875 Steinway with a 1725 Boquay Violin, and very beautifully balanced they sound. (Not to mention being among the most musically exceptional ever recorded...)

I agree that the modern Steinway are just the latest in a long of more or less continual development and I find both modern performances on older pianos and Twenties recordings - usually on older Steinways rewarding listening . What really matters is the pianist. The trouble about pianos is they don’t age well and to me the Blüthner sound on the Schiff is just not as satisfying as a decent modern Steinway or indeed Blüthner . To describe some fortepianos as “knitting needle “ or “ honky-tonk” is not a caricature but an attempt to put into words the slightly dull , out of tune sound some of them make . It has something perhaps to do with the faster decay on the sound and , to my ears , it sounds slightly out of tune. It’s funny because exactly the same could be said about harpsichords but I don’t have the same problem with them. Funnily enough playing a fortepiano which I’ve done a few times presents nothing like the same to the challenge to the ears which makes me wonder whether somewhere in all this recording plays a part.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And there was I, thinking we were living in the 21st Century, when the term had come to serve a useful purpose in differentiating between wooden- and iron-framed instruments.

And there I was thinking, it was a term for oneupmanship.

[cloughie]

And there I was thinking, it was a term for oneupmanship.

…and there was I not giving a tinkers about what it is called but very interested in whether I like the sound!

[Barbirollians]

It's an everyday version for me. Difficult to better in my view.

But this isn't the concerto being reviewed.

Perahia and Annie Fischer for me . I think that the same coupling of 19 and 23 that Perahia made is one of his very best records and the crisper ECO accompaniment plays a part in that. Pollini's record like Bernstein's late 40 and 41 are quite big band, albeit very enjoyable, but I don't want to listen to Mozart like that everyday .

[jayne lee wilson]

I agree that the modern Steinway are just the latest in a long of more or less continual development and I find both modern performances on older pianos and Twenties recordings - usually on older Steinways rewarding listening . What really matters is the pianist. The trouble about pianos is they don’t age well and to me the Blüthner sound on the Schiff is just not as satisfying as a decent modern Steinway or indeed Blüthner . To describe some fortepianos as “knitting needle “ or “ honky-tonk” is not a caricature but an attempt to put into words the slightly dull , out of tune sound some of them make . It has something perhaps to do with the faster decay on the sound and , to my ears , it sounds slightly out of tune. It’s funny because exactly the same could be said about harpsichords but I don’t have the same problem with them. Funnily enough playing a fortepiano which I’ve done a few times presents nothing like the same to the challenge to the ears which makes me wonder whether somewhere in all this recording plays a part.

But Schiff evidently doesn't hear his Bluthner the way you do or he'd never have chosen it, or the Brodmann in his Schubert ECMs. As I'm worn out saying, you need to read his essays on all of that included in the notes....
To me, listening to the CD or the 24/96 stream, on a highly-resolved system based on studio monitoring equipment with ears I think I can still trust, they sound very beautiful, perfectly apt to the rep and in the Brahms perfectly balanced with the orchestra.

But of course "sparky's magic piano" and "knitting needles" are caricatures, and much-repeated, very clichéd caricatures at that. Anyone using them rules themselves out of serious consideration. Just like Beecham with his stupid skeletons....

[Bryn]

But Schiff evidently doesn't hear his Bluthner the way you do or he'd never have chosen it, or the Brodmann in his Schubert ECMs. As I'm worn out saying, you need to read his essays on all of that included in the notes....
To me, listening to the CD or the 24/96 stream, on a highly-resolved system based on studio monitoring equipment with ears I think I can still trust, they sound very beautiful, perfectly apt to the rep and in the Brahms perfectly balanced with the orchestra.

But of course "sparky's magic piano" and "knitting needles" are caricatures, and worn-out clichéd caricatures at that. Anyone using them rules themselves out of serious consideration. Just like Beecham with his stupid skeletons....

While o the subject of Scuff and his instrumental chaices, let's not forget his Diabellis (et al):

[Barbirollians]

But Schiff evidently doesn't hear his Bluthner the way you do or he'd never have chosen it, or the Brodmann in his Schubert ECMs. As I'm worn out saying, you need to read his essays on all of that included in the notes....
To me, listening to the CD or the 24/96 stream, on a highly-resolved system based on studio monitoring equipment with ears I think I can still trust, they sound very beautiful, perfectly apt to the rep and in the Brahms perfectly balanced with the orchestra.

But of course "sparky's magic piano" and "knitting needles" are caricatures, and worn-out clichéd caricatures at that. Anyone using them rules themselves out of serious consideration. Just like Beecham with his stupid skeletons....

My ears hear clackety click knitting needles in Bilson/Gardiner - sorry if you don't like but that is what I hear . We are all different and would not suggest that you or any others on here are " ruled out of consideration " simply because I do not agree with them .

[jayne lee wilson]

My ears hear clackety click knitting needles in Bilson/Gardiner - sorry if you don't like but that is what I hear . We are all different and would not suggest that you or any others on here are " ruled out of consideration " simply because I do not agree with them .

OK then - find me a more.....cultured, evocative and comparative description, perhaps in comparison with Brautigam or Sofronitsky....

It is of course the language, not the disagreement per se, that I find so redundant, especially when some of us (including Andras Schiff) go to some trouble to exemplify fine distinctions, and offer historical and technical insights.

[Ein Heldenleben]

My ears hear clackety click knitting needles in Bilson/Gardiner - sorry if you don't like but that is what I hear . We are all different and would not suggest that you or any others on here are " ruled out of consideration " simply because I do not agree with them .

Yes you can’t win an argument by dismissing others opinions as “ruled out of consideration.” You also can’t dispute what people say they hear and then assert they are in some way ignorant or have failed to read up on it all. That is simply a disguised ad hominem argument.
To me fortepianos sound out of tune but then so do quite a few singers I rather enjoy and indeed one or two violinists .

On the Brahms front I quite like the sound Schiff produces on his mid 19th century Blüthner but I prefer the sound of (some ) modern pianos . If Mr Schiff would like to play some Brahms on my (reconditioned ) 1905 Blüthner he would be only too welcome. Frankly I’d be happy to hear him on the local pub piano ….but I’m not sure he would be.
Thing is I don’t like the fetishising of instruments be they Strads, Steinways , fortepianos , solid gold penny whistles . What matters is the performer, the music and the listener.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes you can’t win an argument by dismissing others opinions as “ruled out of consideration.” You also can’t dispute what people say they hear and then assert they are in some way ignorant or have failed to read up on it all. That is simply a disguised ad hominem argument.
To me fortepianos sound out of tune but then so do quite a few singers I rather enjoy and indeed one or two violinists .

On the Brahms front I quite like the sound Schiff produces on his mid 19th century Blüthner but I prefer the sound of (some ) modern pianos . If Mr Schiff would like to play some Brahms on my (reconditioned ) 1905 Blüthner he would be only too welcome. Frankly I’d be happy to hear him on the local pub piano ….but I’m not sure he would be.
Thing is I don’t like the fetishising of instruments be they Strads, Steinways , fortepianos , solid gold penny whistles . What matters is the performer, the music and the listener.

Hmmm.....don't think we'd get far without the instruments......isn't it significant that Richter often chose a Yamaha, or Hough (in his recent Beethoven Concerto set) a Bosendorfer...? (Just read about the process of playing/recording them with Lintu, on two different versions of the same model...). Brahms was very specific about his favoured pianos throughout his life. Many performers have shown such often obsessive choices and devotions.
"Fetishising" is yet another argument-by-exaggeration..... another Straw Man......

See #68 on opinions and disagreements...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hmmm.....don't think we'd get far without the instruments......isn't it significant that Richter often chose a Yamaha, or Hough (in his recent Beethoven Concerto set) a Bosendorfer...? (Just read about the process of playing/recording them with Lintu, on two different versions of the same model...). Many performers have shown such often obsessive choices and devotions.
"Fetishising" is yet another argument-by-exaggeration..... another Straw Man......

See #68 on opinions and disagreements...

Just listened again to the Schiff Brahms . His Blüthner has a very deep rich bass and middle - just like my 50 years younger Blüthner boudoir grand . But it sounds (in places ) clangy and the top notes have lost a lot of ring and sustain. Parts of the range sound like a bit pub pianoish - that’s what happens to pianos when they age . They lose sparkle and ring in the tone in the treble . Indeed the range of the piano is uneven : some notes like the e above c’ just ring more than others. I had similar problems until I got it refurbished. Unfortunately they put in Abel strings which has thrown up a different range of problems. Oops I am beginning to “fetishise” strings now…
Some Performers are the biggest instrument fetishisers of the lot to be honest . It’s a form of displacement from the extraordinary stress of playing live perhaps..others couldn’t give a toss . Like Charlie Parker and the legendary plastic sax at Massey Hall Concert.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just listened again to the Schiff Brahms . His Blüthner has a very deep rich bass and middle - just like my 50 years younger Blüthner boudoir grand . But it sounds (in places ) clangy and the top notes have lost a lot of ring and sustain. Parts of the range sound like a bit pub pianoish - that’s what happens to pianos when they age . They lose sparkle and ring in the tone in the treble . As indeed had mine until I got it refurbished.

I concur with your description of the Blüthner sound. The dullness at the top end appears to be a feature on many of their instruments, intentionally or not.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I concur with your description of the Blüthner sound. The dullness at the top end appears to be a feature on many of their instruments, intentionally or not.

Don’t want to diss Blüthner . Not having spent 8k on a refurb 15 years ago (eek) . The top on my refurb sounds ok but not stunning .But I once played a top range Yamaha in the showroom and the length of note sound on the top notes was incredible . It actually “sung” - you know like with proper concert pianists ! If only I had £120,000 to spare . When you play something like that you are suddenly aware of all the possibilities…
Oops there goes that instrument fetish again . I cant help myself…
(Apologies just noticed this thread is about Mozart D minor)
Perahia for me …

[Barbirollians]

I find Bilson’s piano thin,acidic and clattery and his tone rather uninteresting and unvaried . In fast passage work knitting needles do come to mind .

Brautigam’s tone is more varied and subtle , his passagework cleaner and better articulated and his playing and the accompaniment seem more in keeping .Bilson is faced with the EBS and Gardiner in a very assertive mood .

Just my ears of course.

[Opinionated Knowall]

Not wishing to enter into the arguments over old/new pianos, can I put in a plea for two recordings not otherwise mentioned thus far (as far as I can see)? Firstly, Levin and Hogwood. Levin is the most imaginative pianist, full of spontaneity and fantasy, and Hogwood, for my money, a much more stylish Mozartian than Gardiner (ducks for cover). And then Richard Goode with the Orpheus CO. Goode is so stylish and expressive, and the chamber music interplay between him and the Orpheans is again so spontaneous.