BaL 18.12.21 - Beethoven: Cello Sonata no. 3

[notnerb]

Is this BaL really happening on Friday 17th???

[BBMmk2]

Would it have been too much to ask, to assess the whole set?
Most of these works are not of epic length....

Quite agree with you, JLW! Surely there’d be time enough, to do a survey of these works, on complete sets?

[Bryn]

Quite agree with you, JLW! Surely there’d be time enough, to do a survey of these works, on complete sets?

I support the decision. Op 5, 69 and 102 are from such different stages of Beethoven's development that I think it makes good sense to concentrate on them separately.

[CallMePaul]

The 2020 Alpha Release with Altstaedt and Lonquich is outstanding - I spent most of last Saturnalia playing it.... reviewed very well too.

Instrumentarium:

Nicolas Altstaedt:
violoncello - giovanni battista guadagnini (1711-1786), made in Piacenza 1749 classical bow by luis emilio rodriguez
a and d pure gut
g and c wound gut (silver/copper);

Alexander Lonquich: fortepiano by conrad graf, vienna c. 1826/27

Thanks to ou and Bryn for the advice; I will investigate these sets further.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I support the decision. Op 5, 69 and 102 are from such different stages of Beethoven's development that I think it makes good sense to concentrate on them separately.

With only around 50 minutes to make comparisons, surveys of complete cycles can barely scratch the surface. Much better to concentrate on individual works. Even then, there is always much ruthless dismissal of many recordings, before making comparisons between a very small proportion of available recordings.

[Petrushka]

Is this BaL really happening on Friday 17th???

It should, of course, be Saturday, December 18 2021. Perhaps the heading can be amended?

[richardfinegold]

Richter/Rostropovich remain the bar for me

[Barbirollians]

And a very high bar too.

[silvestrione]

I agree with those who say the one work is enough. No BAL before 1988, maybe, but some here, like me, will remember a marvellous Interpretations on Record on this sonata, can't remember who did it, but he decided there was too much nervous intensity in Rostropovich's playing (he had nothing but praise for Richter) and thought Fournier and Schnabel had the true Beethovenian inwardness and joy. Du Pre was admired but criticised for taking the short slow movement as an opportunity to, well, emote, I think the upshot was, though not that word.

I shall be trying out some of the HIPP on the list. And the Lonquich mentioned by JLW is a superb artist, try his Mozart PC 17 on Youtube.

[jayne lee wilson]

I don’t envy him that one - how can one choose between - Annie Fischer,Haskil,Argerich,Perahia,Gulda,Brendel ,Bishop Kovacevich etc . I hope he doesn’t choose Bilson cannot stand the sound of his fortepiano - Brautigam much better IMO.

.... we're going to need a bigger boat...

Or at least, a thread for the Mozart D Minor. TS should do a good job on the survey, he has the taxi-knowledge, but BaL is game where you pick a winner; even Gramophone Collection picks 4, including a Top Cat.

[rauschwerk]

An issue for performers of this piece (especially pianists) is the notation in the second movement main theme. This is full of syncopated notes, written as crotchets tied across the barlines. In the first edition (Breitkopf 1809, on IMSLP), Beethoven caused this fingering to be to be written above these notes in the piano part: 4 over the first crotchet and 3 over the second. What could this mean? Changing finger silently on these notes would seem pointless.

In fact Beethoven's pupil Czerny, who played the sonata in the composer's presence, maintained that each note should be sounded twice - the third finger catching the note before the hammer is fully back on its bed. This is discussed by Misha Donat in the Heinrich Schiff/Till Fellner recording (nla) which I have and like very much. Schiff does a clever bit of bowing to imitate the piano. Does anyone know of any other recordings played like this?

[Ein Heldenleben]

An issue for performers of this piece (especially pianists) is the notation in the second movement main theme. This is full of syncopated notes, written as crotchets tied across the barlines. In the first edition (Breitkopf 1809, on IMSLP), Beethoven caused this fingering to be to be written above these notes in the piano part: 4 over the first crotchet and 3 over the second. What could this mean? Changing finger silently on these notes would seem pointless.

In fact Beethoven's pupil Czerny, who played the sonata in the composer's presence, maintained that each note should be sounded twice - the third finger catching the note before the hammer is fully back on its bed. This is discussed by Misha Donat in the Heinrich Schiff/Till Fellner recording (nla) which I have and like very much. Schiff does a clever bit of bowing to imitate the piano. Does anyone know of any other recordings played like this?

You’re right the fingering is pointless. How do we know it’s Beethoven’s I guess ? Assuming it is….. The passage lies more or less under the hand and the first phrase can be played with no change of hand position . Yet later in the piece there’s an octave sequence where some fingering would be quite helpful. That makes me think there is some half release/restrike effect intended as Czerny avers.

[kea]

Restriking notes without allowing the hammer to fully lift was a common pianistic effect on the instruments of Beethoven's time (usually called Bebung) and principally accomplished in performance via a vibrating motion in the wrist. It's achievable on most modern pianos as well, but obviously doesn't sound the same. (It in turn originated with CPE Bach, and would have been imported from the clavichord, where it sounds much like vocal/string vibrato, & that was its primary expressive purpose.)

[Bryn]

Restriking notes without allowing the hammer to fully lift was a common pianistic effect on the instruments of Beethoven's time (usually called Bebung) and principally accomplished in performance via a vibrating motion in the wrist. It's achievable on most modern pianos as well, but obviously doesn't sound the same. (It in turn originated with CPE Bach, and would have been imported from the clavichord, where it sounds much like vocal/string vibrato, & that was its primary expressive purpose.)

Thanks for that. Very interesting, and not at all stupid. (Apologies to Arte Johnson of Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Restriking notes without allowing the hammer to fully lift was a common pianistic effect on the instruments of Beethoven's time (usually called Bebung) and principally accomplished in performance via a vibrating motion in the wrist. It's achievable on most modern pianos as well, but obviously doesn't sound the same. (It in turn originated with CPE Bach, and would have been imported from the clavichord, where it sounds much like vocal/string vibrato, & that was its primary expressive purpose.)

Ian Burnside is explaining it all now …