BaL 27.11.21 - Brahms: String Quintet no. 1 in F major, Op. 88

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think he was held back in any way by "diatonic-centred anchorage" (I'd be surprised if Schoenberg really believed that).

Brahms's tonal language was of course accordant with his means of expression as a whole, and I'm sure Schoenberg appreciated it for itself in that sense; I don't think he would have considered Brahms's music limited on its own terms. But he (AS) did feel impelled by a mission to build on an inheritance, one which saw Brahms as an indispensable stage in the evolution, which in turn would only have become apparent at the point in time and history when Schoenberg arrived on the scene. A lot of what then ensued came out of his intuitive capacity for synthesising everything germane in the tradition to the new direction being pursued, alongside Berg and Webern, though I've always sensed that "the master" was the most comprehensive of the three in his overview. Certainly there was a psychological aspect to his need to condense down into concentrated forms the intense expressive aspects that animated the spirit of composers such as Mahler and Strauss, and it seems quite likely that it was this process of tightening up that started spontaneously germinating pitch materials with little in the way of internal repetition that led to the idea of treating the chromatic as a structural basis for uniting the vertical and horizontal axes of composition, conceptually taking further what Brahms had already achieved, and Reger and Zemlinsky following him, freed now from the "pull towards resolution".

[richardfinegold]

Worth remembering that the Sextets are relatively early works, when Brahms' style was more excitable and adventurous, very innovative around the classical forms yet often in conflict with a desire to remain faithful to them. (This is why Glenn Gould was critical of the D Minor Piano Concerto, resenting Brahms' recap of the 2nd group in (i)). The 1st Symphony, 20 years in the making, plays out the psychodrama in the Shadow of Beethoven.

The Sextets are a part of that earlier impassioned and urgently youthful inspiration, from the Serenades, the 1st Piano Concerto, the Piano Quartets and the 1st String Quartet etc. But the Quintets are more reflective and considered in their expressions, part of the late style including the Clarinet Sonatas and Trios, the great late statement of the Clarinet Quintet. Intimations of Immortality - and of Mortality.

Having said that, the middle-movement of Op.88 is unusual in its 5-part arch-like structure - like a slow movement containing two scherzos (ABACA), reminding one of Schumann's typical Scherzo-with-two trios.
Brahms had many original takes on what might be a slow movement or scherzo - those deceptively light intermezzos and graziosos in the symphonies, the easy naming disguising the hinted depths (the lyrical lightness cutting so intensely to the heart; no surprise that the 3rd Symphony is often played as if it has two slow movements), the contrast with weighty, powerful finales (all remarkably innovative formally themselves).

But the Op.88 stands out as the 5 sections of the Grave ed appassionato-Allegretto Vivace-Tempo1-Presto-Tempo1 are so very separated, with no real transitions between them. Later, Rachmaninov showed a predilection for a related scherzo/slow movement combination, e.g. in the 2nd and 3rd Symphonies.
But, usually very integrated into a larger-scale cyclic structure.

Sibelius dispenses with transitions in his Second Symphony, written not long after Brahms had died.
The sextets strike me as more extroverted works than the comparatively introspective Quintets. You are right in pointing out that the sextets come from an earlier time in his life. I also think that the presence of 6 players opens up possibilities for increased breadth of expression and perhaps stimulated a more extroverted statement

[Goon525]

Listening live, NL is coming across as a confident, authoritative presenter, completely lacking in the verbal tics that disfigured Mark Simpson’s recent BaL. She’s the business.

[Goon525]

Something odd: they’ve just played a Budapest Qt version, allegedly from the 1930s, which sounded pretty modern and was definitely in stereo. can anyone throw any light on this?

[ardcarp]

'Brahms the Progressive'

I remember that quote from my undergrad days, and could never quite 'get it'. I think it appeared on a Finals paper with the instruction, 'discuss'.

I listened intently to today's Brahms Quintet hoping to gain some insight into his chamber music...but without much success. But I agree about the Budapest 1933 version. It's a mistake always to think that older means slower!

[DoctorT]

A good BaL IMO. Anyone else listening? I’m very happy with my Raphael Ensemble CD

[jayne lee wilson]

I remember that quote from my undergrad days, and could never quite 'get it'. I think it appearing on a Finals paper with the instruction, 'discuss'.

I listened intently to today's Brahms Quintet hoping to gain some insight into his chamber music...but without much success. But I agree about the Budapest 1933 version. It's a mistake always to think that older means slower!

Progressive? See #12 etc above. Brahms hardly wrote a conventional sonata/classical structured movement in his life, he was always reinventing such forms, and often based them on intensely-integrated motivic developments, basing whole movements on small highly malleable figures of just a few notes. Listen closely to the finale of Symphony 1 (try to categorise the form of that one ) or the 1st of Symphony No.2 to see what I mean....

As for chamber music, I would always start with the Op.51 Quartets; the C Minor is Brahms at his very greatest.. This has just been released, and its one of the best on record....

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/brahms-the-string-quartets-string-quintet-no-2-dudok-quartet-amsterdam-lilli-maijala/nulqmglde5p7b

...includes OP.111 too (the finer of the two quintets), though not Op.88...
My favourite for both quintets c/w is this one...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0002CHL0I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As usual with MDG, physical disc only available. Exceptional sound (as usual) too....

[gradus]

An excellent introduction t the piece for me and I especially liked the Budapest and Raphaele recordings.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Something odd: they’ve just played a Budapest Qt version, allegedly from the 1930s, which sounded pretty modern and was definitely in stereo. can anyone throw any light on this?

There was a CBS stereo LP issue c.1973 with quartet personnel Roisman, A Schneider, Kroyt and M Schneider, plus Walter Trampler. It's how I got to know the quintets and I would expect to enjoy it still. Must re-spin it!

[ardcarp]

Thanks Jayne (post 22) for your step by step to 'getting' Brahms' chamber works for strings...and indeed Brahms in general. I have to admit the only works I know well are Libeslieder Watzes, the German Requiem and some piano works which I played as a youth.

[Goon525]

Seriously, has no one else actually listened to this BaL on decent kit, and asked themselves how the 1930s Budapest sound seemed so modern and stereophonic?

[Maclintick]

Seriously, has no one else actually listened to this BaL on decent kit, and asked themselves how the 1930s Budapest sound seemed so modern and stereophonic?

Yes, that particular extract was in decent stereo & of much later vintage than 1933. Clearly, at that point in the programme there'd been a mix-up between the 2 Budapest recordings, with the one identified as from 1933 with Alfred Hobday as the extra viola -- "irresistibly puckish" according to NL -- being actually from the 1960 version with Walter Trampler.

[ostuni]

Yes, you’re right: just listened on good headphones. Undoubtedly stereo (and genuine stereo), and not at all the same performance as the mono Budapest/Hobday on Qobuz. A mystery.

[ostuni]

And, following Maclintick's lead, I've just compared the Budapest/Trampler on Qobuz with the BaL 2nd extract (starting 1.04.32): definitely the same recording, with the over-the-top viola bulges unmistakably the same.

[jayne lee wilson]

Comparing the three Budapest Qt. excerpts in the BaL itself, it does appear that they were all from the later 1960 Stereo Recording.....so you'll have to fire up Qobuz etc to hear the 1930s one (rather poor, noisy transfer - I couldn't see the label name on this one though).....
There is a much better mono mastering on Pristine Classical, which you can in fact stream complete for free if you register there....hand on heart though I don't hear this as exceptional or better than their later one, good though it is.

Fine BaL again, like last week on the Mozart k563, carefully observed and illustrated with a good range of interpretations...
Unlike Natasha Loges though, I don't find Brahms' chamber textures lacking in transparency. He creates lighter or heavier sounds where each seems apt, and very artfully too.

A shame that the Leipzig Quartet (formed by Leipzig GO principals) so often gets overlooked in such surveys though; possibly because they are unavailable to stream, like Hyperion, and the MDG label is still not as well known as it might be.
But I would say that wouldn't I?
I have a shelf full of their Schumann, Brahms, Schoenberg & other 2VS, Mendelssohn and Dvorak... a besotted and less than objective fan!

But the Leipzig Op.88/111 (MDG Gold, with Hartmut Rohde), light on its feet, agile and elegant yet energetic, effortlessly meeting all expressive demands, is an all-around winner, as usual with MDG recorded in a spacious acoustic.
And after their recent marvellous set of the Brahms String Quartets c/w an equally outstanding Op111, I just hope the Dudok Quartet (period instruments, rich in rubato and portamento etc) get around to the Op.88 soon...

(thanks again to Gabriel Jackson for recommending the Dudoks to me...)