BaL 16.10.21 - Haydn: Mass in Time of War

[jayne lee wilson]

Let’s start with the VPO New Year’s Day concerts. The orchestra can play this music standing on their heads, but each conductor has an input that nevertheless respects the players’ innate instincts. NK, however, reduces the Viennese lilt to a point where it’s almost imperceptible, and the heavy plod is enough to forget that most of the music was intended for dancing.

He held back on recording Dvorak’s symphonies until he was satisfied that they would be played “accurately” (whatever that means). I imagine the result was indeed accurate, but the dots on the page sounded lifeless when compared with Barbirolli, Kertesz, Kubelik, Karajan et al.

Rob Cowan loved his COE Dvorak Slavonic Dances, and so did I; I never found those rhythmically lacking (and I'm obsessed with schwung). I gave them to Mum for her bedroom system and could never get them back....! See Gramophone 7/2002 for a fascinating, very detailed Fischer (BFO)/Harnoncourt (COE) comparison.

De Gustibus as ever, but I feel that both Dvorak and the New Year's Day Concerts (which I haven't heard for years) are rather hors concours for Harnoncourt.
His legacy will always be the central austro-german symphonic and choral repertoire, where he will often lend one new ears for familiar classics. His readings can be challenging, but devotedly affectionate too. I think his best work was with the COE and the CMW - rare and special partnerships - and as his COE quote about being "on the edge of catastrophe" in their live recordings makes clear, he is simply trying to make us listen - really listen.

Can't wait for the new boxset!

[richardfinegold]

I cannot get on with Harnoncourt in Mozart - and I found his Beethoven symphonies very disappointing . Schumann however I think he is fabulous in . Looking forward to listening to the Schubert set.

Are there more than one Harnoncourt Schubert sets? I had a set of his recorded I think with The Concertgebou. It was a gift that came with a donation or perhaps a magazine subscription, and I didn’t keep it. I remember the first movement of the Fifth as fitting Alpie description-swift and rhythmically stiff simultaneously. Instead of the airy lightness of Reiner, Suitner, and Beecham we get a staccato galumphing, speeded up. I think I remember later reading a review that compared two different N.H. sets and was
thumbs down on this one.
N.H. struck me as a questioning musician whose viewpoints would evolve, and while I haven’t explored his output systematically it wouldn’t surprise me if a re-recorded work would yield two very different interpretations. As with any Artist that takes risks, sometimes his insights might resonate with listeners, some may seem odd. And as listeners we change over time as well.

[cloughie]

Are there more than one Harnoncourt Schubert sets? I had a set of his recorded I think with The Concertgebou. It was a gift that came with a donation or perhaps a magazine subscription, and I didn’t keep it. I remember the first movement of the Fifth as fitting Alpie description-swift and rhythmically stiff simultaneously. Instead of the airy lightness of Reiner, Suitner, and Beecham we get a staccato galumphing, speeded up. I think I remember later reading a review that compared two different N.H. sets and was
thumbs down on this one.
N.H. struck me as a questioning musician whose viewpoints would evolve, and while I haven’t explored his output systematically it wouldn’t surprise me if a re-recorded work would yield two very different interpretations. As with any Artist that takes risks, sometimes his insights might resonate with listeners, some may seem odd. And as listeners we change over time as well.

And my favourite VPO Bohm! - a real spirit lifter!

[DoctorT]

Are there more than one Harnoncourt Schubert sets?

Yes. This set is superb:

Schubert: The Symphonies [Chamber Orchestra of Europe; Nikolaus Harnoncourt] [Ica Classics: ICAC 5160] https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08J5934...ing=UTF8&psc=1

[jayne lee wilson]

Are there more than one Harnoncourt Schubert sets? I had a set of his recorded I think with The Concertgebou. It was a gift that came with a donation or perhaps a magazine subscription, and I didn’t keep it. I remember the first movement of the Fifth as fitting Alpie description-swift and rhythmically stiff simultaneously. Instead of the airy lightness of Reiner, Suitner, and Beecham we get a staccato galumphing, speeded up. I think I remember later reading a review that compared two different N.H. sets and was
thumbs down on this one.
N.H. struck me as a questioning musician whose viewpoints would evolve, and while I haven’t explored his output systematically it wouldn’t surprise me if a re-recorded work would yield two very different interpretations. As with any Artist that takes risks, sometimes his insights might resonate with listeners, some may seem odd. And as listeners we change over time as well.

Three Harnoncourt Schubert Cycles on record....

For those who spent time with it and took the trouble to get to know it, the first RCOA Cycle was soon recognised for the revitalising classic set that it was - as carefully-observed critical opinion in the Gramophone (and later more widely) recognised. (I don't recognise this description of the 5th at all, but no complete cycle is perfect and all conductors have their highs and lows within them; I began with Bohm, the first cycle I bought was with Karajan on LP.... disappointed, I sent it back, long before I'd heard anything from Historically-informed performances...).

The later Berlin Philharmonic Harnoncourt cycle (on their own label) has many beauties and successes, but is less consistently engaging - although I haven't heard this one as extensively as it surely deserves.....something of the "later-maestro-reflections" about it; (as usual, the Berlin Philharmonie acoustic doesn't help).

But the live COE set, released on ICA in 2020, is far and away the best of three for sheer excitement, the sense of discovery for all of the performers, and that thrillingly live impulsiveness and urgency.
This was recorded in Harnoncourt's favoured Graz festival venue across just one week, in July 1988, before the COE made their (again) award-winning market-leader wonder-cycle with Abbado. The players' comments in the notes make clear how involved and loving was the partnership with Harnoncourt, which went on to produce any number of starry achievements in Schumann, Beethoven and much else, over 30 years....it was a labour of love. A great and loving marriage of kindred spirits.

Just stream it on Qobuz Richard, with the volume well up on this spacious presentation.....but even if you had to buy it I would say - just do it!
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/sc.../hykmh42lcu0ea

(A shame the earlier, live one-off c/w of the Schubert 4/Schumann 4 (1851) on Teldec gets overlooked - it shows the Berlin Phil and Harnoncourt at the very peak of their abilities!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mendelssohn-Schubert-Schumann-Symph-Felix/dp/B000000SN5/ref=sr_1_23?dchild=1&keywords=schubert+harnoncourt&qid=1634486503&rnid=1642204031&s=music&sr=1-23

One of my all-time favourites for either work, stunning in its impact! Don't forget the new ICA box, see above...)

[BBMmk2]

I’m sad that, imo, Richard Hickox’s recording didn’t come into the recommendations.

[MickyD]

I got hold of all the Weil/Tafelmusik Haydn masses some time ago, largely because of the use of boys voices, which I love to hear. Very happy with these recordings, but I do agree that Harnoncourt is always a stimulating listen, even if he raises eyebrows sometimes!

[Cockney Sparrow]

I got hold of all the Weil/Tafelmusik Haydn masses some time ago, largely because of the use of boys voices, which I love to hear. Very happy with these recordings, but I do agree that Harnoncourt is always a stimulating listen, even if he raises eyebrows sometimes!

I went looking for those recordings. There is a Brilliant set of the same -with extra contents - 1 disc I think, difficult to track down those physical discs on the Internet in that issue but I was sure they had issued them. Its not in their present catalogue.

Only to find I have the very same box set! (in a pile of box sets......probably why I was so sure!). Time to listen to them - except I still haven't finished listening to the Abbado/BavarianRSO Verdi Requiem.

(I do also have the Hickox Haydn set.... now where is it?.....).

[ostuni]

I’m sad that, imo, Richard Hickox’s recording didn’t come into the recommendations.

Yes, but Richard Wigmore explained at some length (illustrated by two extracts from the Hickox recording) why that was!

[Barbirollians]

Rather surprised that JEG got such short shrift. I rather liked the extracts played.

[MickyD]

I went looking for those recordings. There is a Brilliant set of the same -with extra contents - 1 disc I think, difficult to track down those physical discs on the Internet in that issue but I was sure they had issued them. Its not in their present catalogue.

Only to find I have the very same box set! (in a pile of box sets......probably why I was so sure!). Time to listen to them - except I still haven't finished listening to the Abbado/BavarianRSO Verdi Requiem.

(I do also have the Hickox Haydn set.... now where is it?.....).

There's this budget box of six of the masses from Weil - for some bizarre reason, Sony only put together four of the discs from the cycle. But it's quite a bargain.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Late-Masses-Bruno-Weil/dp/B001TQ1KBW/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=Haydn+Weil&qid=1634560746&qsid=257-0427063-8862323&s=music&sr=1-7&sres=B079JPNYYX%2CB000025RI6%2CB002TW37O8%2CB000002971%2CB0000259MS%2CB0000262DX%2CB001TQ1KBW%2CB0000027ZR%2CB00ZB7UZUM%2CB07F84FJ63%2CB0955BR75Y%2CB0028E15DM%2CB000JJ4G5M%2CB00002MYUY%2CB08FTJRDK9%2CB004O5N3G0&srpt=ABIS_MUSIC

[Cockney Sparrow]

Yes, indeed. This is the one I was talking about

https://www.cdandlp.com/haydn-joseph/masses-tolz-boys-choir-tafelmusik-baroque-orchestra-bruno-weil/cd-x-5/r119180372/

p.s. (after MickeyD's post below) - Slight misunderstanding - I have the 5 - these ones!

[MickyD]

Ah right, didn't know about that one...but I can heartily recommend the recordings. Perhaps you could get the £12 box and find the missing disc on Amazon separately?

[BBMmk2]

Yes, but Richard Wigmore explained at some length (illustrated by two extracts from the Hickox recording) why that was!

It’s still a favourite!

[MickyD]

Yes, indeed. This is the one I was talking about

https://www.cdandlp.com/haydn-joseph/masses-tolz-boys-choir-tafelmusik-baroque-orchestra-bruno-weil/cd-x-5/r119180372/

p.s. (after MickeyD's post below) - Slight misunderstanding - I have the 5 - these ones!

Sorry, I didn't read all of your post. Looks like you got a Dutch issue! But glad you have the set, I like it a lot.