BaL 16.10.21 - Haydn: Mass in Time of War

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So Harnoncourt was the top recommendation. The arguments for it were persuasive, but NH is a conductor I'm never really warmed to. A certain ponderousness seems to pervade his performances, even when they're brisk. That may sound contradictory, but is was was my feeling today also.

I'm sticking with the Hickox.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Well, rather an extravagant morning chez LMP! More later but first a wee detour...

This was the first of the Haydn late masses that I got to know, but very much by the back door. In 1972 I snapped up the HMV Willcocks as a half-price deletion, But not for the mass but the brief coupling, the motet Insanae er vanae curae, because I'd sung it at school. A cracking piece which is still a rarity and shouldn't be. But that led to acquaintance with the Paukenmesse, no bad thing!

In CD days I added the Pinnock Nelson mass and all the St John's/ Guest Haydn mass discs except the Paukenmesse - economic stinginess probably That has just been corrected But I couldn't resist the top-recommendation Harnoncourt also. Don't very often buy the BaL recommendation; buying two off the same programme is unprecedented!

A very good BaL I thought, but did anyone else's hackles rise at missa pronounced meeza???

[Ein Heldenleben]

So Harnoncourt was the top recommendation. The arguments for it were persuasive, but NH is a conductor I'm never really warmed to. A certain ponderousness seems to pervade his performances, even when they're brisk. That may sound contradictory, but is was was my feeling today also.

I'm sticking with the Hickox.

Good bal I thought . Amazing that Bernstein recorded the work 3 times - IMV a liking for Haydn is the hallmark of a quality conductor. Interesting how many not very famous (though excellent ) names are in your list. I wonder if the record companies don’t think a Haydn mass is an economic proposition and steer the grandees away.

[richardfinegold]

I agree. And in fact, I seem to recall the first CDs that I bought were more expensive than 10.99.

I don’t know about the UK but we are in the throes of an inflationary cycle here. Too much money chasing too few goods. I had been thinking of retiring in a year but decided perhaps this isn’t the best time to consider going on a fixed income. At any rate, all physical media have gotten more expensive, another nail in the coffin for CDs, as $10/month for the likes of Apple lossless streaming or Qobuz for a bit more looks increasingly attractive.

[richardfinegold]

That usually means I won't buy it unless I'm really desperate. Scouring the web usually reveals some alternatives.

I don’t wish to divert the thread from Haydn but the latest figures I’ve read show that downloading is also way down, barely more used than CDs. I find it a hassle, and since all I am doing is saving it to a hard drive on a streamer (substitute computer here if you like, since streamers are just specialized computers), and sincethe streamer also plays the streaming service of choice, why incur the extra hassle and expense?
What I don’t understand is why there aren’t more CD-R sold. Presto calls them Presto CDs, ArkivMusik does something similar, but basically they make CDRs from recordings that are download only. Those of us still attached to Physical Media, codgers that we are, will grudgingly make do with this, the companies get some revenue, and it can’t be hard to do.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Only one Physical Media version available of a well known Haydn Mass? There is something wrong about that.

I don’t quite understand. There’s a wide choice of CDs and SACDs of this work.

[richardfinegold]

I don’t quite understand. There’s a wide choice of CDs and SACDs of this work.

I was regurgitating, perhaps incorrectly, a quote from up thread, so I will edit that out

[cloughie]

I don’t wish to divert the thread from Haydn but the latest figures I’ve read show that downloading is also way down, barely more used than CDs. I find it a hassle, and since all I am doing is saving it to a hard drive on a streamer (substitute computer here if you like, since streamers are just specialized computers), and sincethe streamer also plays the streaming service of choice, why incur the extra hassle and expense?
What I don’t understand is why there aren’t more CD-R sold. Presto calls them Presto CDs, ArkivMusik does something similar, but basically they make CDRs from recordings that are download only. Those of us still attached to Physical Media, codgers that we are, will grudgingly make do with this, the companies get some revenue, and it can’t be hard to do.

Chandos also do CDRs - I think most of it’s back catalogue are available that way. Which reminds me that Presto have as one ofvtheir current offers Chandos CDs and downloads with mp3 at £5.60 and higher grade downloads a little more but the offer ends on Monday!

Strange you should mention an aversion to Harnoncourt - Strangely I share that and though I have a number of recordings they are rarely ones I search the shelves for.

[Maclintick]

Presto have as one ofvtheir current offers Chandos CDs and downloads with mp3 at £5.60 and higher grade downloads a little more but the offer ends on Monday!

Also bargain 44.1/16bit downloads of the Harnoncourt...

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8826710--haydn-edition-volume-5-masses-stabat-mater-seven-last-words

[jayne lee wilson]

So Harnoncourt was the top recommendation. The arguments for it were persuasive, but NH is a conductor I'm never really warmed to. A certain ponderousness seems to pervade his performances, even when they're brisk. That may sound contradictory, but is was was my feeling today also.

I'm sticking with the Hickox.

I wish those who keep expressing an aversion to Harnoncourt in such vague and generalised terms would offer us some specific examples - works and movements - from his recordings.

His Haydn Symphony Recordings, across several decades, whether with the RCOA or the CMW are among my most played and most beloved - not to mention repeatedly praised by writers of many interpretive sympathies, with carefully appraised critical commentary, in the Gramophone and elsewhere....
For me they are among the greatest of all, breathe such endless, renewing life into the music, and will always be sought out by those who love this composer.

He was a very philosophical, scholarly, reflective and recreative musician. His late, last will and testimony of the Missa Solemnis is remarkable and unique - seeming almost to come at us from the beyond.... éclairs sur l'au-dela.....

There is the exciting prospect of a new ICA box, out soon, of more his live recordings with the COE.......recalling their 1988 live Schubert Cycle released last year, this is really something to lift the approaching winter gloom....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethvn-Orchestra-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Classics/dp/B09FC5V9QM/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=harnoncourt+ica&qid=1634392591&qsid=257-5213790-5190351&sr=8-2&sres=B08J5934NT%2CB09FC5V9QM%2CB09GPWLZF5%2CB09GPYKCWZ%2CB08F6JZ4ZJ%2CB09GPWJJGH%2CB09GPZ663F%2CB09GPYNJM2%2CB09GPY6WTZ%2CB09GPXYK7S%2CB09GPXX4Y8%2CB09GPXPSY2%2CB09GPXPF4Q%2CB09GPXNGPF%2CB09GPXMW6P%2CB09GPXCKNT&srpt=ABIS_MUSIC

"Harnoncourt wanted the players to take risks and perhaps fail rather than play safe. In rehearsal, he often told the performers that great music was always on the edge of catastrophe!"

[cloughie]

Also bargain 44.1/16bit downloads of the Harnoncourt...

https://www.prestomusic.com/classica...ven-last-words

5cds worth for £6.57 - good value even if Harnoncourt is not your first choice of conductor!

[Barbirollians]

I wish those who keep expressing an aversion to Harnoncourt in such vague and generalised terms would offer us some specific examples - works and movements - from his recordings.

His Haydn Symphony Recordings, across several decades, whether with the RCOA or the CMW are among my most played and most beloved - not to mention repeatedly praised by writers of many interpretive sympathies, with carefully appraised critical commentary, in the Gramophone and elsewhere....
For me they are among the greatest of all, breathe such endless, renewing life into the music, and will always be sought out by those who love this composer.

He was a very philosophical, scholarly, reflective and recreative musician. His late, last will and testimony of the Missa Solemnis is remarkable and unique - seeming almost to come at us from the beyond.... éclairs sur l'au-dela.....

There is the exciting prospect of a new ICA box, out soon, of more his live recordings with the COE.......recalling their 1988 live Schubert Cycle released last year, this is really something to lift the approaching winter gloom....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethvn-Orchestra-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Classics/dp/B09FC5V9QM/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=harnoncourt+ica&qid=1634392591&qsid=257-5213790-5190351&sr=8-2&sres=B08J5934NT%2CB09FC5V9QM%2CB09GPWLZF5%2CB09GPYKCWZ%2CB08F6JZ4ZJ%2CB09GPWJJGH%2CB09GPZ663F%2CB09GPYNJM2%2CB09GPY6WTZ%2CB09GPXYK7S%2CB09GPXX4Y8%2CB09GPXPSY2%2CB09GPXPF4Q%2CB09GPXNGPF%2CB09GPXMW6P%2CB09GPXCKNT&srpt=ABIS_MUSIC

"Harnoncourt wanted the players to take risks and perhaps fail rather than play safe. In rehearsal, he often told the performers that great music was always on the edge of catastrophe!"

I cannot get on with Harnoncourt in Mozart - and I found his Beethoven symphonies very disappointing . Schumann however I think he is fabulous in . Looking forward to listening to the Schubert set.

[MickyD]

I don’t know about the UK but we are in the throes of an inflationary cycle here. Too much money chasing too few goods. I had been thinking of retiring in a year but decided perhaps this isn’t the best time to consider going on a fixed income. At any rate, all physical media have gotten more expensive, another nail in the coffin for CDs, as $10/month for the likes of Apple lossless streaming or Qobuz for a bit more looks increasingly attractive.

The prices of new CDs on Amazon varies in the most bizarre fashion at the moment. I got recently released Jean Rondeau CDs directly from them for only 6.99 euros a few weeks ago and yet some of the newer titles are now costing sometimes more than 20 euros.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I wish those who keep expressing an aversion to Harnoncourt in such vague and generalised terms would offer us some specific examples

Let’s start with the VPO New Year’s Day concerts. The orchestra can play this music standing on their heads, but each conductor has an input that nevertheless respects the players’ innate instincts. NK, however, reduces the Viennese lilt to a point where it’s almost imperceptible, and the heavy plod is enough to forget that most of the music was intended for dancing.

He held back on recording Dvorak’s symphonies until he was satisfied that they would be played “accurately” (whatever that means). I imagine the result was indeed accurate, but the dots on the page sounded lifeless when compared with Barbirolli, Kertesz, Kubelik, Karajan et al.

[Maclintick]

5cds worth for £6.57 - good value even if Harnoncourt is not your first choice of conductor!

He is now. Richard Wigmore's well-argued advocacy of NH plus the bargain price was too tempting, so I gave in. I'd been meaning to augment Dresden/Marriner & the beloved Argo John's/AAM/Guest set with a more modern HIPP version. I'm won over by Harnoncourt's approach -- as JLW says, scholarly, reflective & recreative -- and the all-round excellence of his collaborators.