BaL 12.06.21 - Orff: Carmina Burana

[Barbirollians]

The point I was trying to make was that, once a musical or literary work has been published and flown the metaphorical nest, it should be evaluated purely on its own merits regardless of whatever dastardly deeds or unacceptable views its creator may have committed or held. If a composer whom I revere were discovered to have done or said something truly shocking, would my view of that composer's works change? Were it to be proved beyond all doubt, for example, that Vaughan Williams was secretly an admirer of Oswald Mosely or - even worse - liked Marmite, I would assume he had some good reason to do so. My admiration for the Tallis Fantasia would remain as strong as ever.

I don't agree - as much as I dislike Carmina Burana on purely musical terms as you might put it - it is reinforced by his Nazi associations , his abandonment of his White Rose movement friend only to lie that he was involved to accelerate his denazification. I recall the HMV Greensleeve note referring to the sound of jackboots in its motor rhythms. The fact that the Nazis apparently loved it just underlines its horrors . I can see and hear it being sung by the Hitler Youth and filmed by Riefenstahl.

[LMcD]

Are you absolutely sure that you follow that principle in all your artistic likes and dislikes? I put it to you that in reality things are a little more complicated. I'm not in the least taking the view that "Carl Orff was a Nazi sycophant and lied about it and therefore his music is crap", since I actually have quite a lot of time for some of his later works, which hardly anyone seems to take any notice of. People aren't cartoon characters with only either "good" or "bad" qualities, and the complexity of human intelligence and emotion is one of the things that makes music (to name only this) so compelling.

I'm pleased to say that I'm very close to achieving my wholly admirable aim of making my life, and that of my better half, as uncomplicated as possible in as many respects as possible. I know I should worry about such issues as the number of air miles necessary to bring me out-of-season fruit or whether I really need as many non-disposable plastic bags as I seem to have acquired (I frequently end up buying many more items than there are on my shopping list) but for me, appreciation of music, like most things these days, is a 'simple gift' that I can enjoy in a simple manner.

[LMcD]

I don't agree - as much as I dislike Carmina Burana on purely musical terms as you might put it - it is reinforced by his Nazi associations , his abandonment of his White Rose movement friend only to lie that he was involved to accelerate his denazification. I recall the HMV Greensleeve note referring to the sound of jackboots in its motor rhythms. The fact that the Nazis apparently loved it just underlines its horrors . I can see and hear it being sung by the Hitler Youth and filmed by Riefenstahl.

What position should we adopt if a work that is generally acknowledged to be a masterpiece and was fortunate enough to have been written by a composer with impeccable credentials becomes associated with a horrific act?
As far as Carmina Burana is concerned, I confess, without embarrassment, to picturing the surfer in the Old Spice TV advert.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't agree - as much as I dislike Carmina Burana on purely musical terms as you might put it - it is reinforced by his Nazi associations , his abandonment of his White Rose movement friend only to lie that he was involved to accelerate his denazification. I recall the HMV Greensleeve note referring to the sound of jackboots in its motor rhythms. The fact that the Nazis apparently loved it just underlines its horrors . I can see and hear it being sung by the Hitler Youth and filmed by Riefenstahl.

But where does all this end? Do we cut out Wagner as well? And Lully? And Vaughan Williams was no saint.
When it comes to performers with a tarnished record, does one dump the CDs involving Levine, King, Dutoit, Domingo?

In the case of Carmina Burana, I’ve already mentioned that my favourite version is the off-air one that includes the boys’ choir I prepared, but the conductor was eventually imprisoned, following revelations about his behaviour at Chethams.

[Richard Barrett]

What position should we adopt

None of this is about what anyone should think. It's just interesting to have a discussion of what people do think, whether they appreciate the music under discussion or not, whether the composer's life and opinions play a role in this, and so on. Some people are clearly satisfied with "simple pleasures" and/or not thinking seriously about what human activities are doing to the environment our descendants will have to live in, while others are more engaged with what's going on in music and elsewhere. Have a nice life, as they say!

[LMcD]

[QUOTE=Richard Barrett;852093]None of this is about what anyone should think. It's just interesting to have a discussion of what people do think, whether they appreciate the music under discussion or not, whether the composer's life and opinions play a role in this, and so on. Some people are clearly satisfied with "simple pleasures" and/or not thinking seriously about what human activities are doing to the environment our descendants will have to live in, while others are more engaged with what's going on in music and elsewhere. Have a nice life, as they say![/QUOTE]

OK - I'll do my best to enjoy it while I decide which is to be our Charity Of The Month for July. Having just read Victoria Hislop's latest, it will probably be Lepra. Off to do another shift at the EACH shop in a while. (I mention these things only because I wouldn't like to create a false impression....)

[Ein Heldenleben]

But where does all this end? Do we cut out Wagner as well? And Lully? And Vaughan Williams was no saint.
When it comes to performers with a tarnished record, does one dump the CDs involving Levine, King, Dutoit, Domingo?

In the case of Carmina Burana, I’ve already mentioned that my favourite version is the off-air one that includes the boys’ choir I prepared, but the conductor was eventually imprisoned, following revelations about his behaviour at Chethams.

I think Vaughan Williams - musician, ambulance driver , soldier, Hymn writer , festival organiser , one of the most significant figures in English folk song and classical music , administrator, teacher , choir trainer pretty much was a”saint” ...

[Bert]

But where does all this end? Do we cut out Wagner as well? And Lully? And Vaughan Williams was no saint.
When it comes to performers with a tarnished record, does one dump the CDs involving Levine, King, Dutoit, Domingo?

In the case of Carmina Burana, I’ve already mentioned that my favourite version is the off-air one that includes the boys’ choir I prepared, but the conductor was eventually imprisoned, following revelations about his behaviour at Chethams.

"Time that with this strange excuse
Pardoned Kipling and his views,
And will pardon Paul Claudel,
Pardons him for writing well." Auden

Or maybe not?

And we can be selective according to our preferences. Orff not forgiven for his opportunism, Clemens Krauss' perfidious opportunism overlooked. Look the other way about Strauss and Furtwangler, but not Pfizner. Ignore Karajan's past and listen to his fine performances.

You simply make your own mind up on it.

It's all pretty irrational.

[LMcD]

"Time that with this strange excuse
Pardoned Kipling and his views,
And will pardon Paul Claudel,
Pardons him for writing well." Auden

Or maybe not?

And we can be selective according to our preferences. Orff not forgiven for his opportunism, Clemens Krauss' perfidious opportunism overlooked. Look the other way about Strauss and Furtwangler, but not Pfizner. Ignore Karajan's past and listen to his fine performances.

You simply make your own mind up on it.

It's all pretty irrational.

A bit like life in general, eh? Luckily irrationality cuts both ways.

[Petrushka]

... the sound of jackboots in its motor rhythms.

It's an arresting image but, let's be honest about it, an absurd one which says more about the writer's prejudices than it does about Orff's music. I can certainly see why the 'bed and booze' aspect of the piece would have appealed to the 'Kraft durch Freude' ethos of the time in Germany but wouldn't take it any further than that.

Orff was a composer, not a war criminal. He didn't, as far as we know, send anyone to the gas chambers. His White Rose lie was pretty despicable but it's very easy for us sitting in our comfy armchairs with the hindsight of 80 years to cast judgement on those who had to deal with the reality of living in those times.

If we had to discard music by tainted individuals we'd have practically nothing left and if we had to throw out our CDs made by tainted artists I, for one, might as well dump the lot!

[Richard Barrett]

Orff was a composer, not a war criminal. He didn't, as far as we know, send anyone to the gas chambers. His White Rose lie was pretty despicable but it's very easy for us sitting in our comfy armchairs with the hindsight of 80 years to cast judgement on those who had to deal with the reality of living in those times.

Indeed. Although one would hope that knowing about Orff and Strauss and the rest of them might affect our thinking for the better if a comparable situation were to turn up again. Which is why, in response to Bert, I don't think any of it should be forgotten or overlooked - it isn't a question of being appalled by (say) Karajan's past OR listening to his recordings, there's also AND. If we're sufficiently grown up to hold two thoughts in our mind at the same time.

[visualnickmos]

It's an arresting image but, let's be honest about it, an absurd one which says more about the writer's prejudices than it does about Orff's music. I can certainly see why the 'bed and booze' aspect of the piece would have appealed to the 'Kraft durch Freude' ethos of the time in Germany but wouldn't take it any further than that.

Orff was a composer, not a war criminal. He didn't, as far as we know, send anyone to the gas chambers. His White Rose lie was pretty despicable but it's very easy for us sitting in our comfy armchairs with the hindsight of 80 years to cast judgement on those who had to deal with the reality of living in those times.

If we had to discard music by tainted individuals we'd have practically nothing left and if we had to throw out our CDs made by tainted artists I, for one, might as well dump the lot!

I think you're spot-on, with all of this. Otherwise one would end up with a situation, where very 'culture' itself disappears, or is at best controlled by those who control.

[Bert]

Indeed. Although one would hope that knowing about Orff and Strauss and the rest of them might affect our thinking for the better if a comparable situation were to turn up again. Which is why, in response to Bert, I don't think any of it should be forgotten or overlooked - it isn't a question of being appalled by (say) Karajan's past OR listening to his recordings, there's also AND. If we're sufficiently grown up to hold two thoughts in our mind at the same time.

Never to be forgotten, but we are all grown up enough to choose whether or not to think about these things while we are indulging in the music - we can choose the time and the place. But all due respect to those who feel they can't, or shouldn't separate things and must simultaneously hold two thoughts in their mind at the same time.

[LMcD]

Indeed. Although one would hope that knowing about Orff and Strauss and the rest of them might affect our thinking for the better if a comparable situation were to turn up again. Which is why, in response to Bert, I don't think any of it should be forgotten or overlooked - it isn't a question of being appalled by (say) Karajan's past OR listening to his recordings, there's also AND. If we're sufficiently grown up to hold two thoughts in our mind at the same time.

Well, that's me probably ruled out!
Google has just turned up a copy of the Gloucester Herald in which it is reported that the young Vaughan Williams once poked a frog with a stick - time, perhaps, to reassess the 3rd movement of the 'Pastoral' Symphony....

[Barbirollians]

"Time that with this strange excuse
Pardoned Kipling and his views,
And will pardon Paul Claudel,
Pardons him for writing well." Auden

Or maybe not?

And we can be selective according to our preferences. Orff not forgiven for his opportunism, Clemens Krauss' perfidious opportunism overlooked. Look the other way about Strauss and Furtwangler, but not Pfizner. Ignore Karajan's past and listen to his fine performances.

You simply make your own mind up on it.

It's all pretty irrational.

Ah but I do hear that in the music - no doubt my fault but it sounds like Nazi music to my ears whether that is rational or not .

As for Clemens Krauss yes he was an opportunist but he also provided cover for English friends who were spiriting Jews out of the country.