BaL 12.06.21 - Orff: Carmina Burana

[NatBalance]

Gosh, I'm amazed, no, staggered how many folk dislike this work, or think it bearable, even calling it vulgar. Strewth, I was expecting copious praise for such a magnificent work. I have noticed there is very often a dislike for pieces that are popular with the masses, perhaps because they have had the pieces pushed down their ears way too much. If that is the reason then that does not denigrate the piece itself. It means it's too good for it's own good and is similar to when composers grow to hate their most popular pieces, like Rachmaninov getting fed up with his Prelude No.1.

A mate of mine knows someone who goes to the extreme and even snubs popular pieces like Beethoven's 5th or 9th, Handle's Messiah etc. He calls this guy an obscurest. Great name. You have them in the pop world aswell.

Rich

[Richard Barrett]

A mate of mine knows someone who goes to the extreme and even snubs popular pieces like Beethoven's 5th or 9th, Handle's Messiah etc. He calls this guy an obscurest. Great name. You have them in the pop world aswell.

There's a difference between actively disliking something, and avoiding it because it's overfamiliar to you. Carmina Burana does have various features which many people find offensive: it's highly repetitious, it's all so to speak drawn in primary colours like an old Hollywood movie about Robin Hood or whatever, its composer was highly compromised by his association with the Nazi regime, and so on. Things like that, independently of its popularity "with the masses" (whoever they are), are highly offputting to many people.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's a difference between actively disliking something, and avoiding it because it's overfamiliar to you. Carmina Burana does have various features which many people find offensive: it's highly repetitious, it's all so to speak drawn in primary colours like an old Hollywood movie about Robin Hood or whatever, its composer was highly compromised by his association with the Nazi regime, and so on. Things like that, independently of its popularity "with the masses" (whoever they are), are highly offputting to many people.

I completely agree with you about the crude primary colours of Carmina Burana but if by “old Hollywood Robin Hood film” you mean the classic ‘Adventures of Robin Hood ‘with Errol Flynn please can I defend it ? It was shot in wonderful Technicolor - famous for its ability to reproduce pastel shades as well as primary and had a score by Eric Korngold vastly superior in musical quality to that of Orff’s . Korngold was also a refugee from precisely the sort of politics we despise in the culture that threw up Orff.

[Richard Barrett]

if by “old Hollywood Robin Hood film” you mean the classic ‘Adventures of Robin Hood ‘with Errol Flynn please can I defend it ? It was shot in wonderful Technicolor - famous for its ability to reproduce pastel shades as well as primary

I stand corrected! What I really meant though was that neither Orff's nor Hollywood's version of the Middle Ages bore much relation to reality... in the sense that Monty Python and the Holy Grail is more realistic: "how do you know he's a king?" "because he isn't covered in sh*t!"

[Ein Heldenleben]

I stand corrected! What I really meant though was that neither Orff's nor Hollywood's version of the Middle Ages bore much relation to reality... in the sense that Monty Python and the Holy Grail is more realistic: "how do you know he's a king?" "because he isn't covered in sh*t!"

Yes agreed and the late Terry Jones was quite an authority in medieval matters and no doubt ensured the film’s uncanny “accuracy.” As for the Carmina though the Wheel Of Fortune is a key medieval concept isn’t it ? A concept with which I have always had a good deal of sympathy and funnily enough , during lockdown a few others are also beginning to see the pattern of endless random cycles raising you up and cutting you down.

[Bryn]

Yes agreed and the late Terry Jones was quite an authority in medieval matters and no doubt ensured the film’s uncanny “accuracy.” As for the Carmina though the Wheel Of Fortune is a key medieval concept isn’t it ? A concept with which I have always had a good deal of sympathy and funnily enough , during lockdown a few others are also beginning to see the pattern of endless random cycles raising you up and cutting you down.

Shades of the Kondratief wave.

[NatBalance]

There's a difference between actively disliking something, and avoiding it because it's overfamiliar to you. Carmina Burana does have various features which many people find offensive: it's highly repetitious, it's all so to speak drawn in primary colours like an old Hollywood movie about Robin Hood or whatever, its composer was highly compromised by his association with the Nazi regime, and so on. Things like that, independently of its popularity "with the masses" (whoever they are), are highly offputting to many people.

Highly repetitious? Goodness, I haven't noticed that, I'll have to have another listen, and for that to actually be offensive … well I find that amazing. I love that it ends with that same brilliant theme that it begins with. Really rounds off the whole piece very satisfactorily. I sometimes find certain pieces not repetitious enough, or don't make the most of a good sound. I guess you hate minimalist music. I'm sorry but my favourite response to that is that people who hate minimalist music have minimalist taste. How about Bach Brandenburg Concertoes? He gets some good themes going there and really gets the most out of them, repeats and repeats, brilliant. Don't know what that primary colours thing is about.

I don't know details about Orff's association with the Nazi regime. A quick read on Wikipedia and it looks like he was trapped in the regime and had to comply or be ruined but I don't know, that's just a quick glance. That kind of thing I find does sort of get in the way of music sometimes but generally I find music so powerfull that it over rules such things. Admittedly it does add a bit of a nasty taste to Frank Sinatra, and as for that wonderfull song Two Little Boys by Rolf Harris well I don't know what I'm going to feel next time I hear that. I suspect yet again the music will camouflage the bad associations. The difference between pop music and classical is that pop music is generally songs and usually associated very strongly with a certain singer, therefore you are actually hearing the voice of the person who offends, whereas with Wagner or Orff, you are not actually hearing them, and their music is so good that for me it cannot be overshadowed. It's like enjoying a gorgeous food recipe and then discovering you do not like the person who created it. Does that then alter the taste of the recipe? Well, depends how good the recipe is I suppose.

[Richard Barrett]

I guess you hate minimalist music.

No. I wasn't talking about myself. I was talking about those aspects of Orff's work that many people find offensive. Orff brings not just the "same brilliant theme" back at the end but the entire opening movement. That's something that neither Bach nor any "minimalist" composer would do. As for the Nazi connection, as others have said on this thread it's not just a matter of "comply or be ruined" but that in 1945 he lied that he had actually been associated with a brave and principled anti-Nazi resistance movement, in order to ingratiate himself with the denazification authorities, which however you look at it is contemptible behaviour.

[NatBalance]

Orff brings not just the "same brilliant theme" back at the end but the entire opening movement.

But that's not a fault, that's a merit. Its like the covers of a book and finishes it off perfectly. I always look forward to hearing that dramatic sound again, too good to be heard just once. I've heard it live, brilliant.

Yes, does sound bad that lie he apparently told but I don't see how that can affect the music.

[Richard Barrett]

But that's not a fault, that's a merit.

If you liked it the first time around, yes. If you didn't, you think "oh no, not this again!" Other examples that could be cited of this kind of form are the Goldberg Variations or the second movement of Beethoven's op.111 or the second movement of Prokofiev's Second Symphony, where the reprise serves to emphasise both the great distance of the journey the music has taken from its starting point and the possibility of hearing the same thing (after this journey) in a completely different way, as in Eliot's "And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." Does Orff achieve this kind of effect? Or is it just, as you say, a matter of the covers of a book?

Carl Orff didn't "apparently" lie about his actions during the Third Reich, it's indisputably documented that he did. Once more, some people find that this affects their appreciation of his work while others don't. Perhaps this has to do with a perception (or not) that since he was prepared to be so insincere as to try and deny his (at the very least) acquiescence in the Nazi regime, why should one see his artistic work as anything but crass opportunism? - a suspicion which the populistic style of the music perhaps could be seen as lending credence to.

[LMcD]

If you liked it the first time around, yes. If you didn't, you think "oh no, not this again!" Other examples that could be cited of this kind of form are the Goldberg Variations or the second movement of Beethoven's op.111 or the second movement of Prokofiev's Second Symphony, where the reprise serves to emphasise both the great distance of the journey the music has taken from its starting point and the possibility of hearing the same thing (after this journey) in a completely different way, as in Eliot's "And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." Does Orff achieve this kind of effect? Or is it just, as you say, a matter of the covers of a book?

Carl Orff didn't "apparently" lie about his actions during the Third Reich, it's indisputably documented that he did. Once more, some people find that this affects their appreciation of his work while others don't. Perhaps this has to do with a perception (or not) that since he was prepared to be so insincere as to try and deny his (at the very least) acquiescence in the Nazi regime, why should one see his artistic work as anything but crass opportunism? - a suspicion which the populistic style of the music perhaps could be seen as lending credence to.

I believe that Mozart was a Freemason, but I try not to let that affect my judgement of his music and, while I'm not the greatest Richard Strauss fan, I find my enjoyment of those works that I do enjoy is not diminished by any associations he may have had with the Nazi party. In the world of literature, Philip Larkin wasn't very nice to some of his female friends, apparently, but 'The Whitsun Weddings' remains one of my favourite poems. Then there's Thomas Hardy's truly shocking treatment of poor Emma ....

[LHC]

I believe that Mozart was a Freemason, but I try not to let that affect my judgement of his music and, while I'm not the greatest Richard Strauss fan, I find my enjoyment of those works that I do enjoy is not diminished by any associations he may have had with the Nazi party. In the world of literature, Philip Larkin wasn't very nice to some of his female friends, apparently, but 'The Whitsun Weddings' remains one of my favourite poems. Then there's Thomas Hardy's truly shocking treatment of poor Emma ....

If you are listing artists’ misdeeds, there are much worse examples than this. Picasso was horrible to his wives and mistresses; Caravaggio was a murderer, as was Benvenuto Cellini, who boasted of killing three people in his autobiography. Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover. Richard Dadd murdered his father and produced most of his artworks during his time in prison and various mental institutions. Egon Schiele was arrested for sex with a minor, and Eric Gill, responsible for the sculptures on Broadcasting House, and for several fonts still in widespread use, molested his children and had an incestuous relationship with his sister for many years.

[LMcD]

If you are listing artists’ misdeeds, there are much worse examples than this. Picasso was horrible to his wives and mistresses; Caravaggio was a murderer, as was Benvenuto Cellini, who boasted of killing three people in his autobiography. Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover. Richard Dadd murdered his father and produced most of his artworks during his time in prison and various mental institutions. Egon Schiele was arrested for sex with a minor, and Eric Gill, responsible for the sculptures on Broadcasting House, and for several fonts still in widespread use, molested his children and had an incestuous relationship with his sister for many years.

The point I was trying to make was that, once a musical or literary work has been published and flown the metaphorical nest, it should be evaluated purely on its own merits regardless of whatever dastardly deeds or unacceptable views its creator may have committed or held. If a composer whom I revere were discovered to have done or said something truly shocking, would my view of that composer's works change? Were it to be proved beyond all doubt, for example, that Vaughan Williams was secretly an admirer of Oswald Mosely or - even worse - liked Marmite, I would assume he had some good reason to do so. My admiration for the Tallis Fantasia would remain as strong as ever.

[mikealdren]

If you are listing artists’ misdeeds, there are much worse examples than this. Picasso was horrible to his wives and mistresses; Caravaggio was a murderer, as was Benvenuto Cellini, who boasted of killing three people in his autobiography. Gesualdo killed his wife and her lover. Richard Dadd murdered his father and produced most of his artworks during his time in prison and various mental institutions. Egon Schiele was arrested for sex with a minor, and Eric Gill, responsible for the sculptures on Broadcasting House, and for several fonts still in widespread use, molested his children and had an incestuous relationship with his sister for many years.

And more recent musicians have not been whiter than white: Levine, Domingo and many more

[Richard Barrett]

The point I was trying to make was that, once a musical or literary work has been published and flown the metaphorical nest, it should be evaluated purely on its own merits regardless of whatever dastardly deeds or unacceptable views its creator may have committed or held.

Are you absolutely sure that you follow that principle in all your artistic likes and dislikes? I put it to you that in reality things are a little more complicated. I'm not in the least taking the view that "Carl Orff was a Nazi sycophant and lied about it and therefore his music is crap", since I actually have quite a lot of time for some of his later works, which hardly anyone seems to take any notice of. People aren't cartoon characters with only either "good" or "bad" qualities, and the complexity of human intelligence and emotion is one of the things that makes music (to name only this) so compelling.