BaL 15.05.21 - C.P.E. Bach: Cello Concerto no. 3 in A

[Richard Barrett]

For those who like consulting scores, the complete CPE Bach edition produced by the Packard Humanities Institute is a wonderful resource - the cello concertos are at https://cpebach.org/toc/toc-III-6.html

For my tastes, the fortepiano continuo in the Gaillard recording was just a bit too intrusive, and I suspect it might get more annoying with repeated listening. I think I enjoyed Dieltiens & Orch 18th Century more than HF and AMcG did - though (and I was listening over headphones, so room acoustics don’t come into it) I do agree with those who found the recording over-resonant.

Thanks for that link. I see what you mean about the possibly intrusive fortepiano - I eventually felt the same about its use in another CPE Bach CD, that of flute concertos with Rachel Brown on Hyperion, but on the Gaillard CD it seems more to emphasise the chamber-music aspect of the performance which I find very attractive. (I too have been listening to these recordings on headphones.)

[MickyD]

I remember being rather shocked at the time to hear that, following research, Hogwood would not be using any keyboard continuo in the early symphonies of his Haydn cycle. (This has been discussed often on these pages!)

But I also remember being surprised that upon hearing them, I didn't feel in any way deprived. Maybe that is more due to Haydn's brilliant writing in that it doesn't need a keyboard 'filling in' - the more scholarly of you may be able to shed some light on that for me.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't think one has to come down on one side or the other of this argument. Haydn's symphonies were quite widely performed in their time, no doubt sometimes with continuo and sometimes without, depending on circumstances. While Haydn presumably played co-principal to Tomasini in pieces like no.45 (which I think is one of the pieces of evidence brought up by Hogwood), he also played the little keyboard solo at the end of no.98... what had he been doing in the performance prior to that? sitting there doing nothing?

Something else I remember Hogwood saying was that people are used to thinking that the music sounds too sparse without a continuo keyboard but that in fact that sparseness was what Haydn wanted and he wrote with that in mind. Maybe so. But CPE Bach was almost a generation older, had grown up in the continuo era and was an accomplished keyboard player to a degree that Haydn seems not to have been, so I wouldn't think of extrapolating from one to the other in either direction. That's my two cents' worth anyway!

[ardcarp]

Maybe so. But CPE Bach was almost a generation older, had grown up in the continuo era and was an accomplished keyboard player to a degree that Haydn seems not to have been, so I wouldn't think of extrapolating from one to the other in either direction. That's my two cents' worth anyway!

A very sensible summing up if I may say so. I do get a bit worried about dogmatic 'research' conclusions when there is nothing concrete to base the research on. It's quite possible, for instance, that sometimes keyboard continuo was used and sometimes not.

Changing the subject slightly, I was troubled by Hannah's saying, quite near the start, that people should not regard C.P.E. Bach as a transitional figure. My immediate reaction was that I shall think of him however I like! But Hannah's point might have been better expressed by saying that CPE didn't think of himself as 'transitional' No, of course he didn't. Like any composer he was writing in the style of his own generation, heading for the 'galante'. He was obviously not thinking 'I'm somewhere in between my Dad and whoever comes next'. Incidentally, CPE Bach and Johann Stamitz were born within three years of each other.

[vinteuil]

Changing the subject slightly, I was troubled by Hannah's saying, quite near the start, that people should not regard C.P.E. Bach as a transitional figure. My immediate reaction was that I shall think of him however I like! But Hannah's point might have been better expressed by saying that CPE didn't think of himself as 'transitional' No, of course he didn't. Like any composer he was writing in the style of his own generation, heading fot the 'galante'. He was obviously not thinking 'I'm somewhere in between my Dad and whoever comes next'. Incidentally, CPE Bach and Johann Stamitz were born within three years of each other.

... and of course if you said "Bach" tout court then and for the next generation, people wd probably have understood that as meaning 'CPE' rather than anyone else


.

[BBMmk2]

I found this one to be quite illuminating and has helped me understand CPE Bach’s music better.

[Ein Heldenleben]

A very sensible summing up if I may say so. I do get a bit worried about dogmatic 'research' conclusions when there is nothing concrete to base the research on. It's quite possible, for instance, that sometimes keyboard continuo was used and sometimes not.

Changing the subject slightly, I was troubled by Hannah's saying, quite near the start, that people should not regard C.P.E. Bach as a transitional figure. My immediate reaction was that I shall think of him however I like! But Hannah's point might have been better expressed by saying that CPE didn't think of himself as 'transitional' No, of course he didn't. Like any composer he was writing in the style of his own generation, heading for the 'galante'. He was obviously not thinking 'I'm somewhere in between my Dad and whoever comes next'. Incidentally, CPE Bach and Johann Stamitz were born within three years of each other.

Yes I Thought that was odd. Aren’t most artists , in any genre if they are worth engaging with “transitional” figures ?

[Richard Barrett]

Yes I Thought that was odd. Aren’t most artists , in any genre if they are worth engaging with “transitional” figures ?

I think "transitional" in this kind of context is often code for "lesser" figures whose work doesn't fully realise what are regarded as the peaks of musical achievement as exemplified by JS Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. A moment's reflection of course shows that the work of those "greats" was in fact transitional too, and that the use of the word to indicate "in-between" artists like CPE Bach (and even more so his brother Johann Christian, who can hardly be mentioned without something like "pointing towards Mozart" cropping up) results from a circular kind of thinking. Not for the first time, the idea of what actually makes "great art" or a "great artist" shows itself to be based on quite shaky foundations. Does this matter? Only in so far as it often creates an unnecessary lack of appreciation of composers like CPE Bach, much of whose work (his choral music for example) is still very little known.

[Bryn]

. . . A moment's reflection of course shows that the work of those "greats" was in fact transitional too, and that the use of the word to indicate "in-between" artists like CPE Bach (and even more so his brother Johann Christian, who can hardly be mentioned without something like "pointing towards Mozart" cropping up) results from a circular kind of thinking. . . .

Your mention of "circular thinking" triggered my bête noire of talking in terms of "symphonic cycles". "On your bike", I say. I don't know of any composer of multiple symphonies whose final symphonic work leads on their first.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think "transitional" in this kind of context is often code for "lesser" figures whose work doesn't fully realise what are regarded as the peaks of musical achievement as exemplified by JS Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. A moment's reflection of course shows that the work of those "greats" was in fact transitional too, and that the use of the word to indicate "in-between" artists like CPE Bach (and even more so his brother Johann Christian, who can hardly be mentioned without something like "pointing towards Mozart" cropping up) results from a circular kind of thinking. Not for the first time, the idea of what actually makes "great art" or a "great artist" shows itself to be based on quite shaky foundations. Does this matter? Only in so far as it often creates an unnecessary lack of appreciation of composers like CPE Bach, much of whose work (his choral music for example) is still very little known.

Yes - unless it’s dying all art is in transition. Mind you death is also a transition...
A more accurate description would have Mozart drawing from JC rather then the latter “pointing towards “ the former...

[Richard Barrett]

my bête noire of talking in terms of "symphonic cycles"

It's by analogy with "song cycle" isn't it? Maybe you object to that too...

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's by analogy with "song cycle" isn't it? Maybe you object to that too...

I wonder whether the song cycle term emerged from musicologists ,with An die ferne Geliebte being usually credited as the first example , whereas the symphony cycle is the invention of concert promoters and record co execs wanting to market the complete Rattle, Karajan etc experience ?

[Bryn]

I wonder whether the song cycle term emerged from musicologists ,with An die ferne Geliebte being usually credited as the first example , whereas the symphony cycle is the invention of concert promoters and record co execs wanting to market the complete Rattle, Karajan etc experience ?

Good point. An die ferne Geleibte does have distinct cyclical properties, e.g. harmonically.

[Richard Barrett]

I wonder whether the song cycle term emerged from musicologists

... or from the title of Schumann's opp. 2 and 39?

[Ein Heldenleben]

... or from the title of Schumann's opp. 2 and 39?

Really interesting - what German term does he use ?