BaL 15.05.21 - C.P.E. Bach: Cello Concerto no. 3 in A

[Goon525]

I’ve been away in a Welsh cottage with dodgy internet so Qobuz has been unavailable to me for a while. But home now, and in front of the main system, I was intrigued enough by the disagreements above to start by giving the Dieltiens a listen. Two caveats: I’m not a CPE groupie (though I have friends who are); and I don’t think I’ve heard this concerto before. Anyway, I’d like to weigh in on Jayne’s side of this debate. I think the performance full of life and interest; and although it’s clearly a church acoustic, it’s an enjoyable listen, and there is plenty of detail in the orchestra if you have a sufficiently resolving system, aided by the high res Qobuz replay. OK, if you really are allergic to a reverberant acoustic, it might not be your preferred taste, but I would say it’s well within acceptable bounds. Thanks for the recommendation, Jayne - especially as the ‘winner’, as it’s on Hyperion, isn’t available to me via streaming.

[Richard Barrett]

One curious effect I have noted on digital streams with lower bit rates / sampling frequency (e,g, Amazon Prime ) is that echo isn’t reproduced faithfully . So for example the decay at the chordal end of a piece doesn’t appear to fade away in a ‘natural manner’ . The very last part of the sound seems to fall away unnaturally quickly - almost at times appearing chopped off.

Yes indeed, it's a result of lower bit rates. 16 bit audio involves 65536 discrete values for amplitude, and, at the lower end of that range, its "stepped" quality sometimes becomes audible, more so for lower bit rates of course, and less for higher ones. I've never heard that cut-off decay in a 24 bit recording for example.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes indeed, it's a result of lower bit rates. 16 bit audio involves 65536 discrete values for amplitude, and, at the lower end of that range, its "stepped" quality sometimes becomes audible, more so for lower bit rates of course, and less for higher ones. I've never heard that cut-off decay in a 24 bit recording for example.

Thanks for clearing that up - exactly as you say - horribly audible on Amazon prime but not on Qubuz (or FM indeed)

[jayne lee wilson]

Indeed, and, sadly, this appears for whatever reason to be a deliberate feature of O18C recordings in recent years, as can be heard in Frans Brüggen's two Beethoven symphony sets, the second of which is unlistenable as far as I'm concerned. It's a wonderful ensemble but it seems like its recording engineers don't want listeners to hear all that attention paid to sound and chamber-music-like interaction. I have three pairs of headphones and two stereo systems in different rooms and they all tell me the same thing.

The Bruggen Cycles sound totally different here: I don't enjoy the second one much, party for musical reasons but also on a account of its slightly dull tonal balance - a rolled-off effect. It is indeed very reverberant, but more through the lower registers which can be unpleasantly boomy, especially when the timps come in; so the midrange seems veiled, sadly throughout the set.
No detail is actually lost but it remains rather uninviting. Not as present as you'd like. (Rotterdam de Doelen).

The earlier Bruggen is a longterm favourite here, for outstanding sound and musical quality. Thrillingly fresh, sharp, dynamic. Very "there before you".
But it was of course recorded in the familiar Philips venues - usually the Utrecht Vredenburg. The engineers knew them well. So many wonderful O18thC/Bruggen recordings came from there, Mozart, Haydn, Rameau and much else, which I've been buying for nearly 20 years now. Almost all reviewed well, and sound wonderful here either on the main rig or the mini-Tivoli in the bedroom.

Our now-controversial CPE Bach is much closer to Bruggen (1), but is very distinct once again, sharper, more spacious and with a much grander reverberance, in another different venue. What an amazing effect this has on the Largo.

***

I'm surprised an audio engineer would downplay the system differences as against the room. The room is part of the system, everything contributes to the result.
Even minor volume changes can be strikingly effective in revealing, or veiling, the detail. My own experience is in fact just the opposite, even in my own room alone. Moving on from Wharfedale and Heybrook speakers to trialling ATCs and Harbeths was a big shock, in showing just how much so many systems leave out (especially the venue acoustic itself). DAC filter selection is surprisingly influential too.
But I seem to be lucky in having a room (9m x 6m, carpet, slight irregularities (bay, inglenook), high ceiling) and a system sympathetic to a wide range of balances - by revealing more, not less. That scale thing again.

But I won't repeat myself further - see#51 for my thoughts about this.
I'll post on the Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan in the CPE A Major soon - another famously reverberant acoustic there, with those distinctly silvery strings...perhaps RB and Heldenleben might try that one, and see what they think...

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Bruggen Cycles sound totally different here: I don't enjoy the second one much, party for musical reasons but also on a account of its slightly dull tonal balance - a rolled-off effect. It is indeed very reverberant, but more through the lower registers which can be unpleasantly boomy, especially when the timps come in; so the midrange seems veiled, sadly throughout the set.
No detail is actually lost but it remains rather uninviting. Not as present as you'd like. (Rotterdam de Doelen).

The earlier Bruggen is a longterm favourite here, for outstanding sound and musical quality. Thrillingly fresh, sharp, dynamic. Very "there before you".
But it was of course recorded in the familiar Philips venues - usually the Utrecht Vredenburg. The engineers knew them well. So many wonderful O18thC/Bruggen recordings came from there, Mozart, Haydn, Rameau and much else, which I've been buying for nearly 20 years now. Almost all reviewed well, and sound wonderful here either on the main rig or the mini-Tivoli in the bedroom.

Our now-controversial CPE Bach is much closer to Bruggen (1), but is very distinct once again, sharper, more spacious and with a much grander reverberance, in another different venue. What an amazing effect this has on the Largo.

***

I'm surprised an audio engineer would downplay the system differences as against the room. The room is part of the system, everything contributes to the result.
Even minor volume changes can be strikingly effective in revealing, or veiling, the detail. My own experience is in fact just the opposite, even in my own room alone. Moving on from Wharfedale and Heybrook speakers to trialling ATCs and Harbeths was a big shock, in showing just how much so many systems leave out (especially the venue acoustic itself). DAC filter selection is surprisingly influential too.
But I seem to be lucky in having a room (9m x 6m, carpet, slight irregularities (bay, inglenook), high ceiling) and a system sympathetic to a wide range of balances - by revealing more, not less. That scale thing again.

But I won't repeat myself further - see#51 for my thoughts about this.
I'll post on the Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan in the CPE A Major soon - another famously reverberant acoustic there, with those distinctly silvery strings...perhaps RB and Heldenleben might try that one, and see what they think...

Perhaps I misunderstood #51 but it seemed to imply that the amount of perceived reverb depends on the quality of the sound system in some way . It might well be that reverberant recordings sound better on a high end system but to be honest I would argue that dry recordings sound better on those as well.
Where it gets complicated is that there is a frequency component to reverberation within a hall and for that to reflected faithfully in a recording you would need to have the sort of flatter frequency response found in higher end (but not necessarily that high end ) equipment . However as the ear has no real lasting memory you would have to have truly exceptional ears to hear a difference between the frequency response in the reverb on a high quality recording of say the Sofiensaal and the actual hall. You would hear a differing acoustic though as that just can’t be completely accurately reproduced because of the colouration in your room and the limitations of electronic reproduction no matter how high end.
It would be an interesting experiment to get an orchestra to play the same music in 10 different halls and see whether anyone could tell the halls apart . I reckon some sound engineers and a few conductors might be able to do it ( assuming the recordings were good enough) .
As it happens I prefer reverberant acoustics to dry ones.
As a matter of interest in your extensive speaker trialling did you prefer the Harbeths ....?

[Bryn]

Perhaps I misunderstood #51 but it seemed to imply that the amount of perceived reverb depends on the quality of the sound system in some way . It might well be that reverberant recordings sound better on a high end system but to be honest I would argue that dry recordings sound better on those as well.
Where it gets complicated is that there is a frequency component to reverberation within a hall and for that to reflected faithfully in a recording you would need to have the sort of flatter frequency response found in higher end (but not necessarily that high end ) equipment . However as the ear has no real lasting memory you would have to have truly exceptional ears to hear a difference between the frequency response in the reverb on a high quality recording of say the Sofiensaal and the actual hall. You would hear a differing acoustic though as that just can’t be completely accurately reproduced because of the colouration in your room and the limitations of electronic reproduction no matter how high end.
It would be an interesting experiment to get an orchestra to play the same music in 10 different halls and see whether anyone could tell the halls apart . I reckon some sound engineers and a few conductors might be able to do it ( assuming the recordings were good enough) .
As it happens I prefer reverberant acoustics to dry ones.

Not an orchestra but various keyboard instruments, try the Beghin Haydn Blu-rays on Naxos. An out and out bargain at their current £22.

[jayne lee wilson]

Perhaps I misunderstood #51 but it seemed to imply that the amount of perceived reverb depends on the quality of the sound system in some way . It might well be that reverberant recordings sound better on a high end system but to be honest I would argue that dry recordings sound better on those as well.
Where it gets complicated is that there is a frequency component to reverberation within a hall and for that to reflected faithfully in a recording you would need to have the sort of flatter frequency response found in higher end (but not necessarily that high end ) equipment . However as the ear has no real lasting memory you would have to have truly exceptional ears to hear a difference between the frequency response in the reverb on a high quality recording of say the Sofiensaal and the actual hall. You would hear a differing acoustic though as that just can’t be completely accurately reproduced because of the colouration in your room and the limitations of electronic reproduction no matter how high end.
It would be an interesting experiment to get an orchestra to play the same music in 10 different halls and see whether anyone could tell the halls apart . I reckon some sound engineers and a few conductors might be able to do it ( assuming the recordings were good enough) .
As it happens I prefer reverberant acoustics to dry ones.
As a matter of interest in your extensive speaker trialling did you prefer the Harbeths ....?

Long story short - the ATC ASL-50s put the performers and their acoustic right there before me - effortlessly distinguishing between halls, orchestras, solo instrumental timbres etc..... but....
I did find them, with their forward-and-down sound staging and unfettered dynamics fatiguing after an hour or so...the volume I needed to bring them to life here was just a little high for me.

The Harbeth C7ESIIs (powered by the same amps as within the ATC 50s, but in separate pre-power cases), which I'd lived with for a while already, got me most of the way into that insight, but placed the soundstage behind, around, and above the speaker plane - easier to live with and listen to for longer. Dynamics a little gentler too, with a marvellously broad midrange their USP. They are still here....

I always missed the ATCs to some extent though. You never forget them once heard. Listening to a Rameau Suite recorded in a castle hall, I could almost smell the stone and feel the chill!
I may revisit them one day, or the Harbeth M40s, but the prices now, even 2ndhand.... well...

More on the CPE (much) later tonight or tomorrow PM... Isserlis lined up too. But I really do have to eat now, and feed various Kitties...

[jayne lee wilson]

What I loved most about the Jean-Guihen Queyras/Ensemble Resonanz/Minasi (HM 24/48, Qobuz) was the volatile exuberance of the finale, a cat-and-mouse with the orchestra racing ahead, the soloist reining them back in, then racing off together - the ensemble as freely creative in tempi and dynamic as Queyras - who, like Dieltiens, gives us a striking mini-cadenza two-thirds through. Very playful, a lot of fun and strikingly varied in its expressions - one of my favourite performances of this movement.
The first allegro is a more genial collaboration, the largo an intense, confiding, intimate lament with higher soloistic reaches of remarkable vibrato-free purity; the ensemble very closely responsive to Queyras and again, note-to-note alive and expressive. A compelling reading, characterising each movement very distinctively in its own terms - vital in a relatively short piece.

Very good sound, slightly set-back but not especially resonant. Fine clarity and definition. I didn’t feel as personally in touch with the musicians as I did with Gaillard, though the sheer sense of fun soon compensates. This is rapidly becoming one of my favourite CPE Bach single issue albums.

*****
Back in The Land of the Reverbs for the Hidemi Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan (BIS lossless, Qobuz) so acoustically characteristic of their cantata series, which lends their strings that typically silvery sheen. The more prominent harpsichord here complements this timbral lucency beautifully, so its contributions seem clearer and more expressive, more concertante, than usual. Suzuki’s Cello has a warmer, more cantabile quality than Dieltiens, so this first allegro has agility, elegance and flow as its main distinguishing features (and could almost be a double concerto).
But it is the Largo (marked “con sordini, mesto" here) where the reading finds it focus. As with Dieltiens, the bigger acoustic space emphasises the grandeur and depth of the music, speaking to us as a Classical Tragedy might. The glorious BCJ strings aren't as vastly accommodated as the O18thC, but the similarity, given the moderate tempo, is clear. I loved the profound eloquence of their Largo, replaying it several times.
(And perceiving once again, that smaller baroque ensembles find an enveloping, more evocative voice in a spacious hall, in this of all music; you just need sympathetic reproduction to bring it out).

Still, although cooler and loftier in tone than Queyras, the BCJ find their own vivacity in the finale, bright and breezy after we emerge from the Caverns of Melancholy.
Neat, close soloist/ensemble rapport here, tightly matched but with rather less responsive dialoguing. Engaging on its own terms but less fun or compelling than Queyras; not as distinctive in its spacious setting as Dieltiens.

So another fine performance, beautifully and atmospherically recorded with a distinctively salient and expressive harpsichord, but (unlike Queyras or Dieltiens) no finale mini-cadenza this time. Once you’ve heard it in the usual very inviting spot it feels a shame when the soloist doesn’t take their chance to add some further individualising signature; it gives us time to breathe, and to consider, in the midst of all the restless CPE-birr…

[Richard Barrett]

It would be an interesting experiment to get an orchestra to play the same music in 10 different halls and see whether anyone could tell the halls apart

As you'll know, though, there are (at least) two issues with recording instruments in a space. One is the reverberant quality of the space itself, and the other is the placement of musicians and microphones in that space, which affects the proportion between direct and reflected sound that's getting from instruments to microphones. I can see that the philosophy behind such recordings as the O18C one we're talking about, which sounds as if most of what we're hearing has been registered by microphones at some distance from the ensemble, is to give the impression of the listener being somewhere in the middle of the concert hall (where the most expensive seats are). But for me this philosophy is flawed, because so much of the spatial impression one receives at a concert is derived from small but crucial movements of the head (as well as input from the eyes). This issue came into sharp focus for me last year when working with binaural recording-processing software, which is theoretically able to "position" a sound source anywhere within a sphere surrounding the virtual listening position, although in practice it seems almost impossible to position a source directly in front of the listener because (as with putting a mono signal into a stereo system) any slight deviation tends to decentre the source, whereas in a real space the aforementioned movements would compensate and we hear the sound emanating from its actual position. To cut a long story short, I don't think setting up the mics to reproduce "the best seat in the house" is a good idea for audio recording. Compensation for not actually being there is better achieved by other means, the artificiality of which should preferably not draw too much attention to itself - that's the art of the recording engineer.

[Ein Heldenleben]

As you'll know, though, there are (at least) two issues with recording instruments in a space. One is the reverberant quality of the space itself, and the other is the placement of musicians and microphones in that space, which affects the proportion between direct and reflected sound that's getting from instruments to microphones. I can see that the philosophy behind such recordings as the O18C one we're talking about, which sounds as if most of what we're hearing has been registered by microphones at some distance from the ensemble, is to give the impression of the listener being somewhere in the middle of the concert hall (where the most expensive seats are). But for me this philosophy is flawed, because so much of the spatial impression one receives at a concert is derived from small but crucial movements of the head (as well as input from the eyes). This issue came into sharp focus for me last year when working with binaural recording-processing software, which is theoretically able to "position" a sound source anywhere within a sphere surrounding the virtual listening position, although in practice it seems almost impossible to position a source directly in front of the listener because (as with putting a mono signal into a stereo system) any slight deviation tends to decentre the source, whereas in a real space the aforementioned movements would compensate and we hear the sound emanating from its actual position. To cut a long story short, I don't think setting up the mics to reproduce "the best seat in the house" is a good idea for audio recording. Compensation for not actually being there is better achieved by other means, the artificiality of which should preferably not draw too much attention to itself - that's the art of the recording engineer.

You’ve made some very good points and I agree with you and I think it would also be the philosophy of quite a few balance engineers. Though complete artificiality through multi miking isn’t satis either. The other factor is that with so many live recordings mics often have to be slung in a position where no human ear would feel comfortable - twenty to thirty feet above the stalls. Because of the directionality of the mics it is possible to control the level of reflected sound in a way that onmni directional ears cannot (unless you cup your ears - but that introduces frequency distortion). That directionality can now be controlled remotely as the acoustic changes as the hall fills up- I think I’ve got that right . I read a piece on relaying the Proms recently and the Mic arrays there are now pretty complicated .
I did a few binaural recordings in the very early days as a test - two Sony ECM50’s on the “ears” of a perspex fake head . I recorded a fireworks display watched by a few friends. A great recording full of convincing whooshs. But we were in our twenties , drink had been taken and the amount of swearing meant I decided not to circulate it too widely...

[jayne lee wilson]

Interesting discussion…. but I still want to know what you both ( or Goon-Kleine, or anyone….!) think of the BIS recording (vide #68 above), which is a bit straightlaced in the outer movements but shares a sonic and spiritual kinship with the Glossa with another remarkable Largo. Its use of the harpsichord is very striking too.

My CPE-B orchestral collection is fairly extensive, and I’d risk the generalisation that there is often that trade-off: warmer and closer “friendlier” settings bring out the wit, the inventiveness and originality, but the spacious more grandly-set ones discover a marvellous ethereal beauty and unexpected grandeur lost to the former, especially in the slow movements. One reason I still love a pioneering doyen like Hartmut Haenchen (his orchestra named for this composer) is that sheer silken beauty.
Most of his CPE Symphonies are from the Berlin ChristusKirche, and very spaciously set indeed. But you’d have to look elsewhere for the quirks, the kinks, the colourful period-textures and the rhythmic élan to be brought out. Happily we can have both.

Wq 183s are playing now…. simply gorgeous… hard to leave the room…

Audio engineers may, after all, be seeking an emotional and expressive effect, not just trying to “put the home listener in the middle of the hall...the most expensive seats"...etc….they may very likely seek a given balance to bring out the musical qualities the performers want to offer. Or even discover something unexpectedly wonderful during rehearsals...

Recording a small baroque orchestra in a small, warmly intimate setting might seem the easiest way to get the music across. But going for something wildly opposite seems to me to have opened up wider and deeper tonal and expressive regions in this amazing music.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Will listen but bogged down in rugby final , cooking , From The House Of The Dead and the prospect of a pub lunch tomorrow in gale force conditions !

[Ein Heldenleben]

Had a quick listen to the cello concerto https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&ur...AAAAAdAAAAABAI

[jayne lee wilson]

Had a quick listen to the cello concerto https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&ur...AAAAAdAAAAABAI

Sorry, but that is Cantata BWV 34....(in low-res sound...)

Still, with Rugby, cooking and opera, you've taken a lot on for one night already! Confusion is forgivable....
So the Pub Lunch is outdoors is it? Take paperweights for the bread....

Better to stay home and take the Monaco Grand Prix instead....

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sorry, but that is Cantata BWV 34....

Sorry that was a post in embryo which I thought I had deleted which will teach me to draft while watching rugby on the telly and the last few overs of a local cricket match on YouTube. I will post later as From The House Of The Dead is , for some reason , a bit too close to home.....