BaL 1.05.21 - Haydn: Symphony no. 92 "Oxford"

[Barbirollians]

Is it necessary to sneer at the late Sir Colin Davis ? his London symphony recordings have given me great pleasure for 30 years and far more than performances like that of Jacobs whose minuet was absurdly fast for all the vim of the other movements.

[LMcD]

Is it necessary to sneer at the late Sir Colin Davis ? his London symphony recordings have given me great pleasure for 30 years and far more than performances like that of Jacobs whose minuet was absurdly fast for all the vim of the other movements.

I suspect it's believed in certain quarters that certain performance styles, composers, performers and conductors should be neglected, if not sneered at, for a while. It's amazing, to me, that performances and recordings of Elgar, Sibelius and Mahler were much harder to find than they are now.
I find 'Big Band Haydn' no more objectionable than, say, performances of 18th-century piano concertos on 20th-century pianos. I don't see the point in trying to decide what Haydn or Mozart might have thought or said on the matter.

[ardcarp]

I suspect it's believed in certain quarters that certain performance styles, composers, performers and conductors should be neglected, if not sneered at, for a while. It's amazing, to me, that performances and recordings of Elgar, Sibelius and Mahler were much harder to find than they are now.
I find 'Big Band Haydn' no more objectionable than, say, performances of 18th-century piano concertos on 20th-century pianos. I don't see the point in trying to decide what Haydn or Mozart might have thought or said on the matter.

Absolutely agree.

[Bryn]

I suspect it's believed in certain quarters that certain performance styles, composers, performers and conductors should be neglected, if not sneered at, for a while. It's amazing, to me, that performances and recordings of Elgar, Sibelius and Mahler were much harder to find than they are now.
I find 'Big Band Haydn' no more objectionable than, say, performances of 18th-century piano concertos on 20th-century pianos. I don't see the point in trying to decide what Haydn or Mozart might have thought or said on the matter.

I'm as happy to listen to orchestral performances which eschew the historical circumstances of a composition as I am to hear Wendy Carlos's realisations of Bach et al. However, I also think Colin Davis's reported distaste for HIPP to be rather silly.

[vinteuil]

I'm as happy to listen to orchestral performances which eschew the historical circumstances of a composition as I am to hear Wendy Carlos's realisations of Bach et al. However, I also think Colin Davis's reported distaste for HIPP to be rather silly.

I agree with all of this. I also find Colin Davis's performances of Haydn to be rather dull. Of course I am happy if others enjoy them

.

[DoctorT]

I listened to the Fey last night, available on Amazon Music. Exciting, yes, but am I the only one who finds it somewhat hard driven and lacking in charm?

[HighlandDougie]

I listened to the Fey last night, available on Amazon Music. Exciting, yes, but am I the only one who finds it somewhat hard driven and lacking in charm?

I can't speak for the 'Oxford' (which I haven't heard in full) but I bought the set of the 'London' symphonies with Fey and, pace Jayne whom I know to admire them, Dr T's, "somewhat hard driven and lacking in charm", applies equally to them, IMUO. After a time, it all becomes a bit wearing. Having turned to Sigiswald Kuijken's set with relief (one of the joys of the CD catalogue) to remind myself of Haydn's wit, as well as his constant inventiveness, the Fey set got relegated to the shoebox in the eaves, brought out again when I thought that I might not have given them a fair hearing (especially given the misfortune which Fey has suffered) but then put away again when I thought it unlikely that I would ever want to listen to them again.

[crb11]

I listened to the Fey last night, available on Amazon Music. Exciting, yes, but am I the only one who finds it somewhat hard driven and lacking in charm?

No - I'd entirely agree with that description. I've listened to some of his other late Haydn symphonies and found them better, although heading in the same direction. I'm not sure whether he's pushing this one more, or this symphony just requires a bit of a lighter touch. Probably some of each.

At least from what I've heard, Jacobs would be my top pick, but I could see Berglund growing on me - I hadn't heard anything by him this early before.

[Pianoman]

Jacobs has been my choice for some time now, but I was sufficiently impressed by Berglund (a conductor I've always admired anyway) to invest a whole £3.16 on the download from iTunes. It's a good listen and a worthy 'antidote' to the generally hard-driven HIP versions. Very well played and recorded too.

[Richard Barrett]

I suspect it's believed in certain quarters that certain performance styles, composers, performers and conductors should be neglected, if not sneered at, for a while.

Styles of performance and composition change over the course of time and always have done. HIPP isn't concerned with deciding what Haydn or Mozart might have thought, but with taking what they actually did as a starting point - as opposed to taking historically unaware 19th century concepts as a starting point, which is surely a bit random. It's also a bit curious that many people who say they like to hear 18th century music played on "modern" instruments have no time at all for music written in "modern" styles!

[LeMartinPecheur]

HIPP isn't concerned with deciding what Haydn or Mozart might have thought, but with taking what they actually did as a starting point - as opposed to taking historically unaware 19th century concepts as a starting point, which is surely a bit random. It's also a bit curious that many people who say they like to hear 18th century music played on "modern" instruments have no time at all for music written in "modern" styles!

Isn't it distinctly paradoxical that as we inevitably get further and further and further away from the time of Haydn, Bach or whoever, we persuade ourselves that we know more and more about how their performances went? I'm not talking about factual matters like size of ensembles and or the shape and size of instruments used - such things are as it were scientific fact - but the deep traditions of 'how things go'. Tempi are one example but there must be a host of others.

Of course, such matters are usually ultimately unprovable but it seems odd to me that we assume so totally that almost anything that we can be sure nineteenth century musicians did must be wrong and therefore be changed. We do our very best to wipe the slate completely clean, despite the fact that they were so much closer in time and, arguably, so much more closely connected by traditional 'instincts', teaching and practical demonstration with the players of yesteryear!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is it necessary to sneer at the late Sir Colin Davis ? his London symphony recordings have given me great pleasure for 30 years and far more than performances like that of Jacobs whose minuet was absurdly fast for all the vim of the other movements.

Sneering is commonplace amongst people who aren’t in the same league as those they criticise.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Isn't it distinctly paradoxical that as we inevitably get further and further and further away from the time of Haydn, Bach or whoever, we persuade ourselves that we know more and more about how their performances went? I'm not talking about factual matters like size of ensembles and or the shape and size of instruments used - such things are as it were scientific fact - but the deep traditions of 'how things go'. Tempi are one example but there must be a host of others.

Of course, such matters are usually ultimately unprovable but it seems odd to me that we assume so totally that almost anything that we can be sure nineteenth century musicians did must be wrong and therefore be changed. We do our very best to wipe the slate completely clean, despite the fact that they were so much closer in time and, arguably, so much more closely connected by traditional 'instincts', teaching and practical demonstration with the players of yesteryear!

I couldn’t have put it better.

[cloughie]

Isn't it distinctly paradoxical that as we inevitably get further and further and further away from the time of Haydn, Bach or whoever, we persuade ourselves that we know more and more about how their performances went? I'm not talking about factual matters like size of ensembles and or the shape and size of instruments used - such things are as it were scientific fact - but the deep traditions of 'how things go'. Tempi are one example but there must be a host of others.

Of course, such matters are usually ultimately unprovable but it seems odd to me that we assume so totally that almost anything that we can be sure nineteenth century musicians did must be wrong and therefore be changed. We do our very best to wipe the slate completely clean, despite the fact that they were so much closer in time and, arguably, so much more closely connected by traditional 'instincts', teaching and practical demonstration with the players of yesteryear!

..and did percussion back then always sound like a ‘can of mabs’.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Isn't it distinctly paradoxical that as we inevitably get further and further and further away from the time of Haydn, Bach or whoever, we persuade ourselves that we know more and more about how their performances went? I'm not talking about factual matters like size of ensembles and or the shape and size of instruments used - such things are as it were scientific fact - but the deep traditions of 'how things go'. Tempi are one example but there must be a host of others.

Of course, such matters are usually ultimately unprovable but it seems odd to me that we assume so totally that almost anything that we can be sure nineteenth century musicians did must be wrong and therefore be changed. We do our very best to wipe the slate completely clean, despite the fact that they were so much closer in time and, arguably, so much more closely connected by traditional 'instincts', teaching and practical demonstration with the players of yesteryear!

I think it’s fair to say we know more about 18th century practices in a ‘theoretical ‘ way than say we did 100 years ago. But we can never be sure. The message I get from reading quite a bit of music history is just how ramshackle performances were even up to the time of Wagner . Composers were constantly forced to rework things - maybe a spur to further creativity? Musicians didn’t show up , things went awry , soloists went off at a tangent - you couldn’t make it up. If we really want to recreate things as they happened quite a few would want their money back.