BaL 17.04.21 - Schumann: Piano Quintet in E flat

[cloughie]

Frankl and the Lindsays is excellent, as is Beaux Arts +
It is a really lovely work - full of tunes!

[gradus]

Frankl and the Lindsays is excellent, as is Beaux Arts +
It is a really lovely work - full of tunes!

Sure is, but as Heldenleben says up-thread some players who might be expected to perform it seem to avoid it.
Reading Jensen's book on Schumann he makes much the same point about some of Schumann's earlier pieces not attracting performances in their early days as the quirky and original scores gave insufficient opportunity for keyboard display - 'Finger heroes' as Clara termed them preferred showier virtuoso writing for the instrument that demonstrated their astonishing skills. Schumann certainly ain't no pianistic pushover but I for one am glad that he never seriously ventured down that path.

[verismissimo]

It seems to me that classical and romantic piano quintets/quartets/trios present a particular problem for performance/recording using 'modern' instruments. Sound production of both pianos and string instruments increased sharply in the 20th century - the piano more so than the strings. This results in the keyboard instrument dominating in a way that 19th century pianos didn't - to the extent that string players have said to me that they can't even hear themselves play!

So a good HIP-oriented ensemble playing appropriate instruments can yield a much better balance. In 'Our Summer BAL 19' from nine years ago, vints wrote: 'I have Richard Burnett with the Fitzwilliams, Elena Mateucci with the Michelangelos, Federica Valli with la Gaia Scienza - of these the last my current preferred.'

I like the Gaia Scienza recording a lot too. Valli plays an 1842 Erard. Are there other HIPs since then?

[richardfinegold]

A Pianist who by definition is a good Chamber Music player will scale their sound back so as to not swamp their fretboarded colleagues. It isn’t necessary to automatically dismiss any Keyboard instrument constructed after 1840. It has already been noted that Schumann, who was a great harmonic innovator, wrote a relatively restrained (by his standards) keyboard part. I am sure that Alpie list contains several dozen modern instrument versions where everyone is playing nice.
I listened to one version recently where everyone plays with great intensity and the results are thrilling. Everyone should sample Rudolf Serkin and the Budapest Qt. It surely won’t win the Palm here but its got a febrile energy that makes it quite thrilling.
The Rubinstein/Guarneri version is an excellent example where a Superstar of the Ivories is playing like a team player.

Two on the list that pique my curiosity are the aforementioned Frankl/Lindsay and Kocsis/Takacs. Kocsis was such a superb musician...hoping that I will find these on Qobuz, although I had done a Peter Frankl search a few weeks ago and don’t remember seeing it

[vinteuil]

.

... there is also Clara Schumann's arrangement of this work for piano four hands - it is available on this CD :

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B01KARE210

.

[Pulcinella]

It seems to me that classical and romantic piano quintets/quartets/trios present a particular problem for performance/recording using 'modern' instruments. Sound production of both pianos and string instruments increased sharply in the 20th century - the piano more so than the strings. This results in the keyboard instrument dominating in a way that 19th century pianos didn't - to the extent that string players have said to me that they can't even hear themselves play!

So a good HIP-oriented ensemble playing appropriate instruments can yield a much better balance. In 'Our Summer BAL 19' from nine years ago, vints wrote: 'I have Richard Burnett with the Fitzwilliams, Elena Mateucci with the Michelangelos, Federica Valli with la Gaia Scienza - of these the last my current preferred.'

I like the Gaia Scienza recording a lot too. Valli plays an 1842 Erard. Are there other HIPs since then?

I thought it might be helpful to provide a link to this Summer BaL thread (from before my time on the Forum).
I'm pleased that the BBC MM CD (Jonathan Biss/Jerusalem Quartet), gets such honourable mentions (an excellent in the post from Roehre!).

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?6165-Our-Summer-BAL-19-Schumann-Piano-Quintet

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

.

... there is also Clara Schumann's arrangement of this work for piano four hands - it is available on this CD :

https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B01KARE210

.

There are several versions, but I didn't include them in the list on this occasion.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It seems to me that classical and romantic piano quintets/quartets/trios present a particular problem for performance/recording using 'modern' instruments. Sound production of both pianos and string instruments increased sharply in the 20th century - the piano more so than the strings. This results in the keyboard instrument dominating in a way that 19th century pianos didn't - to the extent that string players have said to me that they can't even hear themselves play!

I don't think that modern instruments are a problem, but perhaps the actual pianos are poor choices of instrument. If you use a Steinway Model D, designed to compete with a full symphony orchestra, then there may be problems of balance. But there are many other options. In the Steinway range, I would opt for the Model A or the Model O for chamber music - smaller, but still expressive and with a beautiful sound.

[Barbirollians]

A Pianist who by definition is a good Chamber Music player will scale their sound back so as to not swamp their fretboarded colleagues. It isn’t necessary to automatically dismiss any Keyboard instrument constructed after 1840. It has already been noted that Schumann, who was a great harmonic innovator, wrote a relatively restrained (by his standards) keyboard part. I am sure that Alpie list contains several dozen modern instrument versions where everyone is playing nice.
I listened to one version recently where everyone plays with great intensity and the results are thrilling. Everyone should sample Rudolf Serkin and the Budapest Qt. It surely won’t win the Palm here but its got a febrile energy that makes it quite thrilling.
The Rubinstein/Guarneri version is an excellent example where a Superstar of the Ivories is playing like a team player.

Two on the list that pique my curiosity are the aforementioned Frankl/Lindsay and Kocsis/Takacs. Kocsis was such a superb musician...hoping that I will find these on Qobuz, although I had done a Peter Frankl search a few weeks ago and don’t remember seeing it

The Argerich version in the Lugano box is special.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It seems to me that classical and romantic piano quintets/quartets/trios present a particular problem for performance/recording using 'modern' instruments. Sound production of both pianos and string instruments increased sharply in the 20th century - the piano more so than the strings. This results in the keyboard instrument dominating in a way that 19th century pianos didn't - to the extent that string players have said to me that they can't even hear themselves play!

So a good HIP-oriented ensemble playing appropriate instruments can yield a much better balance. In 'Our Summer BAL 19' from nine years ago, vints wrote: 'I have Richard Burnett with the Fitzwilliams, Elena Mateucci with the Michelangelos, Federica Valli with la Gaia Scienza - of these the last my current preferred.'

I like the Gaia Scienza recording a lot too. Valli plays an 1842 Erard. Are there other HIPs since then?

The piano writing in the Schumann Quintet seems from a look through the score to lend itself to (for want of a better phrase) “piano-bashing” in a way that , for example Schubert’s wonderful writing in the Trout Quintet doesn’t. Just the opening is pretty thick and chordal. The scherzo is full of octaves that are difficult to play quietly (if you are an amateur). And to be honest if you can play them why not advertise it to the world ?In short it looks to me full of balance issues . But I’ve never played it with anyone and unless I really knuckle down with some practice aI’m very unlikely to. Happy to be told I’m wrong by those who know better!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The piano writing in the Schumann Quintet seems from a look through the score to lend itself to (for want of a better phrase) “piano-bashing” in a way that , for example Schubert’s wonderful writing in the Trout Quintet doesn’t. Just the opening is pretty thick and chordal. The scherzo is full of octaves that are difficult to play quietly (if you are an amateur). And to be honest if you can play them why not advertise it to the world ?In short it looks to me full of balance issues . But I’ve never played it with anyone and unless I really knuckle down with some practice aI’m very unlikely to. Happy to be told I’m wrong by those who know better!

This does surprise me. I’ve played through the piano part since reading this, and there’s nothing that I’d call heavy handed in the Scherzo. Perhaps a little in the finale, but the pianist doesn’t have be handcuffed to achieve a tasteful balance.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This does surprise me. I’ve played through the piano part since reading this, and there’s nothing that I’d call heavy handed in the Scherzo. Perhaps a little in the finale, but the pianist doesn’t have be handcuffed to achieve a tasteful balance.

I haven’t played it just looked at the score. In fact I’m wrong the octaves are solo. But in the trio section for me , even if I could get my fingers round the notes at tempo I wouldn’t mind betting the right hand semiquavers that dupe the first violin could drown it out - particularly with a heavy left hand . BUT a really good pianist can do anything including playing fast quietly! Just looking at the score the writing looks thick whereas in the Trout Schubert often has the pianist up in the treble with both hands playing a single line - the strings are doing the harmonic work there don’t you think?

[makropulos]

The Richard Burnett, Fitzwilliam String Quartet performance on Amon Ra will do for me. Yet another Steves's Sounds pot luck bargain discovery. This was probably the first HIPP recording (contrary to the bogus Chanfos claim re their Michelangelo Piano Quartet +1 turn of century recording).

If you're interested in getting the Chandos period instrument version as well (bogus claim notwithstanding, it's a very enjoyable record), it's available as a CD on the Chandos website at the moment for 2.50 (+1.35 postage) which is an amazing bargain. Well worth picking up at that price.

[Bryn]

If you're interested in getting the Chandos period instrument version as well (bogus claim notwithstanding, it's a very enjoyable record), it's available as a CD on the Chandos website at the moment for 2.50 (+1.35 postage) which is an amazing bargain. Well worth picking up at that price.

Many thanks. Duly ordered.

[Padraig]

A piece I like, but having read the thread I fear that my contribution would be Considerably Poorer than most there - a conclusion that I am reaching more and more frequently these days. I'll just stick with the version of the Quintet that first impressed me knowing that I'll never be able to enjoy it to any generally acceptable extent.
For reasons not dissimilar I regret feeling unable to respond to the Jane Manning thread other than to express my sadness at her passing.