BaL 2.06.18 - Schumann: Symphony no. 4 in D minor

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    Turned to, I had imagined, as something of a postscript, I found Chailly’s Leipzig Gewandhaus 1851 4th in the Mahler Edition pretty sensational.
    You have the fascination of the lighter, more revealing and varied orchestration (which is subtly and faithfully done - at times you wouldn't even know...) but Mahler also adds instruments (e.g sometimes increasing the number of horns in a passage, or adding violins to violas) to clarify lines and sharpen impact. His adjustments to dynamics also intensifies musical contrast. Add in Chailly’s fast tempi, crisp pseudo-HIPPs phrasing, rapid-response, exposed brasses in zooming crescendi, and you create an effect that’s not for the fainthearted!

    But this is the Leipzig Gewandhaus playing at their virtuosic, open-textured best, so as long as you can take Schumann at this degree of sonic intensity, you can’t lose. Yet the Romanze, at a flowing pace, is unusually and touchingly hesitant, feather-light, freshly expressive (bringing the 3rd movement of the Rhenish to mind); the scherzo surprises you again with its weight and truculence, the violins really cutting through overhead. The finale intro is very powerful, widely dynamic, but never once reminds you of Bruckner!
    Mahler dispenses with the outer-movement repeats, which, as with the leavened textures, aligns 1851 more closely with 1841, adding another layer of interest.

    But what the listener retains afterward is the sheer physical impact of the Decca recording, the devastating music directness of Chailly’s conception. I almost said “drama” again, but it isn’t that, not really. No emotional excess at all; just the music, in Mahler’s remarkably subtle, insightful arrangement played with terrific power, accuracy and verve.


    Only for "the adventurous"? Perhaps. Or for the happy few... but another one for my top group…(getting a bit crowded up there...)

    Comment

    • Stanfordian
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 9308

      Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
      Turned to, I had imagined, as something of a postscript, I found Chailly’s Leipzig Gewandhaus 1851 4th in the Mahler Edition pretty sensational.
      You have the fascination of the lighter, more revealing and varied orchestration (which is subtly and faithfully done - at times you wouldn't even know...) but Mahler also adds instruments (e.g sometimes increasing the number of horns in a passage, or adding violins to violas) to clarify lines and sharpen impact. His adjustments to dynamics also intensifies musical contrast. Add in Chailly’s fast tempi, crisp pseudo-HIPPs phrasing, rapid-response, exposed brasses in zooming crescendi, and you create an effect that’s not for the fainthearted!

      But this is the Leipzig Gewandhaus playing at their virtuosic, open-textured best, so as long as you can take Schumann at this degree of sonic intensity, you can’t lose. Yet the Romanze, at a flowing pace, is unusually and touchingly hesitant, feather-light, freshly expressive (bringing the 3rd movement of the Rhenish to mind); the scherzo surprises you again with its weight and truculence, the violins really cutting through overhead. The finale intro is very powerful, widely dynamic, but never once reminds you of Bruckner!
      Mahler dispenses with the outer-movement repeats, which, as with the leavened textures, aligns 1851 more closely with 1841, adding another layer of interest.

      But what the listener retains afterward is the sheer physical impact of the Decca recording, the devastating music directness of Chailly’s conception. I almost said “drama” again, but it isn’t that, not really. No emotional excess at all; just the music, in Mahler’s remarkably subtle, insightful arrangement played with terrific power, accuracy and verve.


      Only for "the adventurous"? Perhaps. Or for the happy few... but another one for my top group…(getting a bit crowded up there...)
      I totally agree that the Mahler arrangements of the Schumann symphonies are well worth hearing; especially in Chailly’s accounts.

      Comment

      • jayne lee wilson
        Banned
        • Jul 2011
        • 10711

        Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
        I totally agree that the Mahler arrangements of the Schumann symphonies are well worth hearing; especially in Chailly’s accounts.
        Roaming around the Gramophone archive last night I discovered that Chaiily's live Leipzig GO Schumann 4th (on Decca Concerts, c/w Argerich in the Piano Concerto, which I think aeolium mentioned above) is also of the Mahler Edition. So there's a way to try it without buying another complete cycle. The complete Chailly Schumann/Mahler Edition is on Qobuz as well.
        Listen to unlimited or download Schumann: Piano Concerto / Symphony No.4 by Martha Argerich in Hi-Res quality on Qobuz. Subscription from £10.83/month.

        AFAIK, the only other recording of the Mahler arrangements is the Bergen SO/Ceccato on BIS, which I've a very soft spot for; but it is so different in its approach - affectionate and lyrical, Schumann singing in the Mediterranean sunshine - that it's hard to make any useful comparison with the dynamic thrills of the Chailly.

        Comment

        • visualnickmos
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 3609

          I was quite keen to hear more of Harnoncourt's Schumann - but then I remembered that many years ago I heard a little of Roy Goodman's recording (Rhenish) which if I remember correctly was with the Hanover Band. I don't recall mention of this recording in the BaL, and wondered if it is now 'out of fashion' or indeed if it is worthy of further consideration… I'm referring to the set as a whole, but more specifically (to stay on thread!) the 4th.
          Last edited by visualnickmos; 06-06-18, 21:50.

          Comment

          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
            Gone fishin'
            • Sep 2011
            • 30163

            Originally posted by visualnickmos View Post
            I was quite keen to hear more of Harnoncourt's Schumann - but then I remembered that many years ago I heard a little of Roy Goodman's recording (Rhenish) which if I remember correctly was with the Hanover Band. I don't recall mention of this recording in the BaL, and wondered if it is now 'out of fashion' or indeed if it is worthy of further consideration… I'm referring to the set as a whole, but more specifically (to stay on thread!) the 4th.
            It's not currently available, visnick, other than second-hand and "leftover" new copies via the usual internet sellers. (In other words, if you go into a shop, you can't order a set - which I think is the BaL criterion for "available".) IIRC, it was a highly-regarded set on the Forum, when the Symphony set has been discussed in the past.

            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

            Comment

            • jayne lee wilson
              Banned
              • Jul 2011
              • 10711

              Originally posted by visualnickmos View Post
              I was quite keen to hear more of Harnoncourt's Schumann - but then I remembered that many years ago I heard a little of Roy Goodman's recording (Rhenish) which if I remember correctly was with the Hanover Band. I don't recall mention of this recording in the BaL, and wondered if it is now 'out of fashion' or indeed if it is worthy of further consideration… I'm referring to the set as a whole, but more specifically (to stay on thread!) the 4th.

              I think the choice would be surely between JEG and Goodman, rather than COE/Harnoncourt, as the COE (let alone that glorious Berlin Phil in the 4th) sound like the polished, warm and gorgeous modern orchestra they are, but the Hanover Band and ORR records are of course played on period instruments, with a fairly similar sound and approach.
              Here's Ed Greenfield in Gramophone 6/98:

              "​The contrast between Gardiner and Goodman [....] were not as marked as I expected, being often as much a question of scale and of recording quality as of interpretative differences, with Goodman's orchestra more intimate, and RCA's sound a degree less brightly analytical. Both prefer fast speeds, with Goodman a shade more relaxed and Gardiner more incisive, pressing ahead harder, with syncopations - so important in Schumann - more sharply dramatic."

              That seems fairly accurate to me - the JEG more spacious, the RG closer-up - but only on the basis of brief, rather compressed excerpts heard on allmusic, as the Goodman is unavailable to stream or download on Qobuz.
              There is more to it - e.g Gardiner more "expansive, lyrical and joyful" in the last two movements of NO.2 - but you'll have to seek out the full review for the rest... the Goodman review is in 3/95.

              Also, Goodman only plays the 1841 4th, whereas JEG includes both, as well as the fascinating "Zwickau" Symphony in a scorching performance. (In the lovely Green/White Archiv Collector's Edition box you also get the best of Schumann's choral works and the 4-Horn Konzertstuck, all among the best on record).
              Goodman's only extra is the O-S-F.
              Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 07-06-18, 03:08.

              Comment

              • visualnickmos
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 3609

                Many thanks to Ferney and to Jayne.

                Invaluable guidance - as always.

                Putting aside my initial misgivings about JEG's Schumann 4th extracts - I may investigate further! (Talk about dithering!) I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure…..
                But something is telling me 'Goodman' as well…. that would be way too self-indulgent.

                Comment

                • BBMmk2
                  Late Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 20908

                  Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                  Roaming around the Gramophone archive last night I discovered that Chaiily's live Leipzig GO Schumann 4th (on Decca Concerts, c/w Argerich in the Piano Concerto, which I think aeolium mentioned above) is also of the Mahler Edition. So there's a way to try it without buying another complete cycle. The complete Chailly Schumann/Mahler Edition is on Qobuz as well.
                  Listen to unlimited or download Schumann: Piano Concerto / Symphony No.4 by Martha Argerich in Hi-Res quality on Qobuz. Subscription from £10.83/month.



                  AFAIK, the only other recording of the Mahler arrangements is the Bergen SO/Ceccato on BIS, which I've a very soft spot for; but it is so different in its approach - affectionate and lyrical, Schumann singing in the Mediterranean sunshine - that it's hard to make any useful comparison with the dynamic thrills of the Chailly.
                  That’s all very interesting, JLW. I might just order.
                  Don’t cry for me
                  I go where music was born

                  J S Bach 1685-1750

                  Comment

                  • Mal
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2016
                    • 892

                    Originally posted by visualnickmos View Post

                    Putting aside my initial misgivings about JEG's Schumann 4th extracts - I may investigate further! (Talk about dithering!)
                    "Third Ear" recommends JEG's set, and highlights the added extras, "Konzertstuck gets such an electrifying reading from Gardiner's forces that it's almost worth getting the set for that alone". But it's expensive, and does one really need another set?

                    Comment

                    • Bryn
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 24688

                      Originally posted by Mal View Post
                      "Third Ear" recommends JEG's set, and highlights the added extras, "Konzertstuck gets such an electrifying reading from Gardiner's forces that it's almost worth getting the set for that alone". But it's expensive, and does one really need another set?
                      Yes, that recording of the Konzertstuck really is something special. It's what prompted me to get the Schumann Masterworks boxed set.



                      A bargain box with the symphonies, konzertstuck and other works is this:

                      Comment

                      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                        Gone fishin'
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 30163

                        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                        Yes, that recording of the Konzertstuck really is something special.
                        A bargain box with the symphonies, konzertstuck and other works is this:
                        ... which, coincidentally, has just arrived on my doormap! - The final nudge to buy this set was my noticing that Roger Montgomery was one of the soloists in the Konzerstuck (that and the inclusion of the Zwickau Symphony - which I don't remember ever hearing before - and the Paradise and Mignon choral works, which I think I've only ever heard at most twice each.) So - that's the weekend's listening sorted!
                        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                        Comment

                        • Mal
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2016
                          • 892

                          I bought the Stravinsky "Works" box set so I'm now wary of buying box sets half full of obscure & colourless choral fillers. JEG's 4 and Konzertstuck are available on single CD... still expensive though... I might be tempted if it halves in price. Third Ear calls "Das Paradies" "Romanticism run amuck", accuses it of sentimentality and lacking a Wagnerian big bang, and adds that Gardiner lacks vital colour, through "periodist tendencies", compared to Sinopoli/Dresden. Doesn't sound like my kind of thing at all.

                          Comment

                          • Bryn
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 24688

                            Originally posted by Mal View Post
                            I bought the Stravinsky "Works" box set so I'm now wary of buying box sets half full of obscure & colourless choral fillers. JEG's 4 and Konzertstuck are available on single CD... still expensive though... I might be tempted if it halves in price. Third Ear calls "Das Paradies" "Romanticism run amuck", accuses it of sentimentality and lacking a Wagnerian big bang, and adds that Gardiner lacks vital colour, through "periodist tendencies", compared to Sinopoli/Dresden. Doesn't sound like my kind of thing at all.
                            I can't offhand think f any "obscure & colourless choral fillers" in any of the Stravinsky big boxes, whether from Sony or DG. As to JEG's Das Paradies und die Peri, thank goodness no Wagenrian big bang. Such would be entirely out of place, in my view.

                            Comment

                            • Nick Armstrong
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 26523

                              Just caught up with this BAL and can't add a lot to Jayne's detailed comments above, save a couple of personal reactions. I've lived with the Sawallisch set for decades, most latterly in the Toshiba incarnation on jlw's recommendation, and under similar guidance acquired downloads of Nezet-S and Ticciati

                              Against that background (and allowing for the fact that it's always misleading to judge from bleeding chunks juxtaposed with other b.c.s), the versions sampled by the reviewer that really put me off were JEG (for the 'inept driver pulling away' reason highlighted by visualnick above) and Norrington - and the Brucknerian Barenboim, to be honest. But that's one I really mean to hear entire - not forgotten how stellar the live experience of those forces was at the Proms recently in...errr... Bruckner.

                              The version that really caught my ears was the Harnoncourt and I'd marked it down as a definite purchase.... until that disappointing tempo aberration in the last movement. Still, I need to hear it all (especially in the light of jlw's comment above that the abbreviated extract didn't give the whole picture on NH's choices in that section).

                              So in fact, it's the versions that made it to the final 'shoot-out' which I shall be exploring further.



                              Originally posted by Mal View Post
                              I had Zinman's Beethoven set for a while but, for me, it was like taking a bath in a puddle; crystal clear water perhaps, but still a puddle. Maybe I'm an old hippo, but I need the full mud wallow of Karajan et. al. to feel at all happy. So I'm very wary of chamber approaches to the "big beasts". Maybe I am "stuck in the mud", but can you teach an old hippo new tricks?




                              Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                              When composers revise their works, it is fascinating to have the opportunity to glimpse earlier versions. We can compare early and late versions of works such as Beethoven's Leonora/Fidelio, VW's London Symphony, Tchaikovsky's 2nd Symphony & Romeo & Juliet. And as for Bruckner...
                              Sibelius 5 the most fascinating of all for me (thanks Osmo for recording both)




                              Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
                              Berliner Philharmonbiker


                              "...the isle is full of noises,
                              Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                              Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                              Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

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                              • Karafan
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 786

                                Originally posted by mikealdren View Post
                                River People I have worked out but The Polar Bear???
                                The Polar Bear is a very reputable 3rd party seller on Amazon - he used to have a bricks and mortar shop which I visited often in Leeds in the early days of my building a collection. Always reliable and fast!
                                "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." Thomas Carlyle

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