BaL 2.06.18 - Schumann: Symphony no. 4 in D minor

[verismissimo]

I was really looking forward to this, but then it turned out to be a twofer.

Perhaps battle could be joined indefinitely on a separate thread?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Perhaps battle could be joined indefinitely on a separate thread?

Why only one thread, when two would be better?

[verismissimo]

Why only one thread, when two would be better?

[Mal]

When the Furtwangler influence is fully assimilated ... [Barenboim] is one of the finest conductors around - as amply demonstrated in the excerpts we heard on today's programme.

I was also impressed by the excerpts. If I didn't have a similar(?) Schumann set already (Sawallisch) I might be tempted to make a purchase. Still might. Would anyone make a case for Barenboim as-well-as/instead-of Sawallisch?

[Beef Oven!]

Don't encourage him!

[Beef Oven!]

I was also impressed by the excerpts. If I didn't have a similar(?) Schumann set already (Sawallisch) I might be tempted to make a purchase. Still might. Would anyone make a case for Barenboim as-well-as/instead-of Sawallisch?

I hadn't heard the Sawallisch before and was very impressed with what I heard. I'm not in the market for another Schumann set, but if I was, based on what I heard Saturday morning, I'd go for the Sawallisch ahead of the Barenboim.

[visualnickmos]

I was also impressed by the excerpts. If I didn't have a similar(?) Schumann set already (Sawallisch) I might be tempted to make a purchase. Still might. Would anyone make a case for Barenboim as-well-as/instead-of Sawallisch?

I have had Sawallisch's set for quite some years, and impressive, it is - I very much enjoy it, and have become quite familiar with it (pardon the expression!) However, in the all-too brief extract(s) of Barenboim's 4th, I was impressed by the bigness of it, as well as the vitality of it - a great combination of characteristics, I thought, so that would be my personal case for having both sets - as well as any others that might come into view. Nothing more to add, m'lud.

[jayne lee wilson]

Oh, what a bunch of stick-in-the-muds... Why do I bother...

Yes, music-loving and choosing is all very subjective, I've said pretty much all I can above; but what strikes me in choosing to add, say, Barenboim to Sawallisch, Muti or say, Karajan (BRSO/Kubelik would offer fresher insights) is that you're really only getting another variation on the same large-scale, hefty, thick-textured theme. If you like that sort of thing, then that is the sort of thing...etc., but...


I always acknowledge the classic status of the Sawallisch (which is why I listed it, again..) - fabulous orchestra, marvellous playing, huge dramatic Lukaskirche acoustic; but post-Harnoncourt/YNS/Ticciati/JEG insights, it reminds me now (as does his cycle generally) too forcibly of Brahms or Bruckner (the Dresden intro to 4 (i) has the pounding relentlessness of the intro to a large-scale Romantic Brahms 1st; the Dresden intro to 4 (iv) could be from a late-Brucknerian slow intro or a coda, such is its ominousness, pent-up power and mystery).

The comment about Brucknerian-sounding Schumann is not new - I remember saying exactly that about Sawallisch here some years ago. I loved that set so much once, I bought the EMI Studio, then the GROC, later the Toshiba. But if Schumann, Brahms and Bruckner all sound generally the same, surely you must be missing something? Hence the innovative adventures of Harnoncourt (a blindingly Damascene moment following RC's Gramophone review, the first I bought after Sawallisch, having wrongly assumed I was bored with the music, rather than the recording), YNS, Ticciati and Gardiner.... all of whom garnered huge acclaim and support from many very experienced reviewers. It's not just me!

So I was genuinely upset at the trivialising dismissal offered to those latest sets by William Mival, with scarcely an excerpt played. Unprofessional, just not good enough and could lead listeners way from things they may find very rewarding. I listened twice to the winner via Qobuz lossless, with some enjoyment and closely too, but even on its own terms, the highly idiosyncratic Barenboim was a strange choice.

See #141 etc. above, but I would passionately urge recent posters to go for the Berlin Philharmonic/Harnoncourt 1996-live 1851/4th instead, especially if you're terminally reluctant to take on smaller groups (let alone the sonic-and-culture-shocking challenges of JEG), for this stunner should have a much wider appeal. Far tighter and fresher than DB, with a Philharmoniker playing at its supreme best, it is of universal appeal and is often overlooked (bizarrely unmentioned in BaL, as I said, and, ironically, a better overall NH rec. than his 1841!). I played this immediately after the Berlin Staatskapelle and, having not tried it for some time, it had an unexpectedly stunning impact.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mendelssohn-Schubert-Schumann-Symph-Felix/dp/B000000SN5/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1528139602&sr=1-11&keywords=schumann+harnoncourt

(can't see it on Qobuz, sorry...)

There's slight textual-editional anomaly (shared with Abbado) in the equally fine c/w Schubert 4th, but don't let that bother you....with the Schumann there really is nothing Harnoncourtian to be scared of (oh, alright - a very slight delay in the arrival of the 1st movement's final chord, to effect a more seamless transition into the Romanze, but this is far less obvious than the COE/1841 tempo change I observed above - which didn't stop the BaL recommendation - indeed wasn't even noticed. Not much close listening on BaL this week.

[visualnickmos]

Jayne

You bother because you are passionate about it. That is the best 'justification' although of course, no justification is needed.

I, for one, absolutely enjoy your beautifully written and detailed and - yes- passionate - enthusiasms for certain styles, performing techniques and so, and so on. Your knowledge and eloquence is surely second to none on here!

Isn't it a wonderful thing that so much variety of the same 'musics' exist, and that we all have our very own unique way of appreciation.

So, PLEASE - keep, keep 'bothering!' And thank you, thank you.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne

You bother because you are passionate about it. That is the best 'justification' although of course, no justification is needed.

I, for one, absolutely enjoy your beautifully written and detailed and - yes- passionate - enthusiasms for certain styles, performing techniques and so, and so on. Your knowledge and eloquence is surely second to none on here!

Isn't it a wonderful thing that so much variety of the same 'musics' exist, and that we all have our very own unique way of appreciation.

So, PLEASE - keep, keep 'bothering!' And thank you, thank you.

"Y'know" ( thought I'd use some current Radio-3 speak) some of those Berlin Phil/Harnoncourt 2ndhand CDs are very cheap...and our old friend The Polar Bear is very reliable...
Have a brandy or three to absorb the shock, then just hit place your order....

[verismissimo]

jayne

you bother because you are passionate about it. That is the best 'justification' although of course, no justification is needed.

I, for one, absolutely enjoy your beautifully written and detailed and - yes- passionate - enthusiasms for certain styles, performing techniques and so, and so on. Your knowledge and eloquence is surely second to none on here!

Isn't it a wonderful thing that so much variety of the same 'musics' exist, and that we all have our very own unique way of appreciation.

So, please - keep, keep 'bothering!' and thank you, thank you.

yes, yes, yes!

[Stanfordian]

I have had Sawallisch's set for quite some years, and impressive, it is - I very much enjoy it, and have become quite familiar with it (pardon the expression!) However, in the all-too brief extract(s) of Barenboim's 4th, I was impressed by the bigness of it, as well as the vitality of it - a great combination of characteristics, I thought, so that would be my personal case for having both sets - as well as any others that might come into view. Nothing more to add, m'lud.

On R3 BAL I'm always surprised by the store placed on the viewpoint of single reviewers. Surely reviews are intended to be merely guides! I never heard any great claims made for the chosen recording prior to the recent BAL programme.

I've had the Sawallisch's set a number of decades but I haven't played it for ages. I've said before that I greatly admire Rattle with Berliner Philharmoniker recorded live at Philharmonie - November 2013 on the orchestra's own label. In fact, I relish the Rattle's complete set of Schumann's symphonies.

[Barbirollians]

Oh, what a bunch of stick-in-the-muds... Why do I bother...

Yes, music-loving and choosing is all very subjective, I've said pretty much all I can above; but what strikes me in choosing to add, say, Barenboim to Sawallisch, Muti or say, Karajan (BRSO/Kubelik would offer fresher insights) is that you're really only getting another variation on the same large-scale, hefty, thick-textured theme. If you like that sort of thing, then that is the sort of thing...etc., but...


I always acknowledge the classic status of the Sawallisch (which is why I listed it, again..) - fabulous orchestra, marvellous playing, huge dramatic Lukaskirche acoustic; but post-Harnoncourt/YNS/Ticciati/JEG insights, it reminds me now (as does his cycle generally) too forcibly of Brahms or Bruckner (the Dresden intro to 4 (i) has the pounding relentlessness of the intro to a large-scale Romantic Brahms 1st; the Dresden intro to 4 (iv) could be from a late-Brucknerian slow intro or a coda, such is its ominousness, pent-up power and mystery).

The comment about Brucknerian-sounding Schumann is not new - I remember saying exactly that about Sawallisch here some years ago. I loved that set so much once, I bought the EMI Studio, then the GROC, later the Toshiba. But if Schumann, Brahms and Bruckner all sound generally the same, surely you must be missing something? Hence the innovative adventures of Harnoncourt (a blindingly Damascene moment following RC's Gramophone review, the first I bought after Sawallisch, having wrongly assumed I was bored with the music, rather than the recording), YNS, Ticciati and Gardiner.... all of whom garnered huge acclaim and support from many very experienced reviewers. It's not just me!

So I was genuinely upset at the trivialising dismissal offered to those latest sets by William Mival, with scarcely an excerpt played. Unprofessional, just not good enough and could lead listeners way from things they may find very rewarding. I listened twice to the winner via Qobuz lossless, with some enjoyment and closely too, but even on its own terms, the highly idiosyncratic Barenboim was a strange choice.

See #141 etc. above, but I would passionately urge recent posters to go for the Berlin Philharmonic/Harnoncourt 1996-live 1851/4th instead, especially if you're terminally reluctant to take on smaller groups (let alone the sonic-and-culture-shocking challenges of JEG), for this stunner should have a much wider appeal. Far tighter and fresher than DB, with a Philharmoniker playing at its supreme best, it is of universal appeal and is often overlooked (bizarrely unmentioned in BaL, as I said, and, ironically, a better overall NH rec. than his 1841!). I played this immediately after the Berlin Staatskapelle and, having not tried it for some time, it had an unexpectedly stunning impact.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mendelssohn-Schubert-Schumann-Symph-Felix/dp/B000000SN5/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1528139602&sr=1-11&keywords=schumann+harnoncourt

(can't see it on Qobuz, sorry...)

There's slight textual-editional anomaly (shared with Abbado) in the equally fine c/w Schubert 4th, but don't let that bother you....with the Schumann there really is nothing Harnoncourtian to be scared of (oh, alright - a very slight delay in the arrival of the 1st movement's final chord, to effect a more seamless transition into the Romanze, but this is far less obvious than the COE/1841 tempo change I observed above - which didn't stop the BaL recommendation - indeed wasn't even noticed. Not much close listening on BaL this week.

Such a shame that Abbado only recorded the 2nd symphony not long before he died . I suspect a cycle would have been splendid.

[BBMmk2]

I’ve been wondering. Donsales of BaL winners increase, after?

[Mal]

Oh, what a bunch of stick-in-the-muds... Why do I bother...

I had Zinman's Beethoven set for a while but, for me, it was like taking a bath in a puddle; crystal clear water perhaps, but still a puddle. Maybe I'm an old hippo, but I need the full mud wallow of Karajan et. al. to feel at all happy. So I'm very wary of chamber approaches to the "big beasts". Maybe I am "stuck in the mud", but can you teach an old hippo new tricks? (I did keep a couple of Zinman disks, and you bothered me enough to continue giving them a chance... maybe the chamber approach will click...)

... in choosing to add, say, Barenboim to Sawallisch, ... you're really only getting another variation on the same large-scale, hefty, thick-textured theme ...

I suspect this might be true in this particular case, but compare Karajan '63 to Walter/Columbia in Beethoven and you hear a vast difference - in fact I need both sets to have a mud wallow that I'm entirely happy with.

I dipped into Harnoncourt's Beethoven on Spotify Premium and quite liked what I heard. So I might be tempted by his Schumann, the symphonies come in a little box with Argerich and Kremer in the concertos - and it's inexpensive - tempting! I'll add it to my maybe list... see it's worth bothering :) Thanks for all the input Jayne.