BaL 2.06.18 - Schumann: Symphony no. 4 in D minor

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It just occurs to me - and apologies if this is an "of course not!" moment - your's isn't the 1841 version is it?

Yes it is!! (Thank all that requires thanking for IMSLP! )

So - Leinsdorf/RCA takes the 1841 route at the end of the First Movement, and 1851 for the others!

[cloughie]

... but in an actual concert situation it could well be more than five seconds - to allow conductor to mop brow - audience to coff and rustle programmes - fiddle players to worry about their tuning - timps to listen and tighten - horn players to empty their tubes - more audience coffing - and were off!!

.

...or even applaud if it’s the RHA in August!

[vinteuil]

...or even applaud if it’s the RHA in August!

... and I never knew they performed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Horse_Artillery

Of course, it's always a good thing when they applaud every movement at the Proms. Indeed, even during movements, if things are pertick'ly exciting...

.

[cloughie]

... and I never knew they performed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Horse_Artillery

Of course, it's always a good thing when they applaud every movement at the Proms. Indeed, even during movements, if things are pertick'ly exciting...

.

Looks like I had a Bbm moment! I suspect if the RHA performed it would be good for the roses!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've just checked, and there is a five-second gap, between the first and second movements. Seems it is an RCA 'thing' perhaps…?

Possibly - and many thanks for checking visnick

If I'm right, are you suggesting there should be no gap at all, or just a a brief nano-second (or whatever!) and then 'straight in'.... ? Interesting detail, but as so often is the case in life, it's the detail that makes it all worthwhile! Enough!

It does depend how long you think a fermata should last - but this is by far the longest gap between the First and Second movements of all the records in my collection - apart from Derek Solomons with the Authentic Orchestra ... who does the 1841 version, with a definite break between the movemnts.

It just struck me as not what the rest of the performance had led me to expect.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It just occurs to me - and apologies if this is an "of course not!" moment - your's isn't the 1841 version is it?

Oo - er. Let me see.

Ahem.

Oh dear.

Yes, it is.

I think I'll just disappear...



























I did say I wasn't sure.




Anyway, if Brahms hadn't gone against Clara's wishes, I wouldn't now look a complete idiot.

[vinteuil]

It does depend how long you think a fermata should last - but this is by far the longest gap between the First and Second movements of all the records in my collection -

... just think back to the days of 78s - you wd be getting up to change sides again and again and again : and a 'five second' gap between Movements? Pah!


.

[jayne lee wilson]

If still a little stiffly-articulated and sonically “grey”, Dausgaard with the Swedish CO brings off an 1841 4th quite as startling as it must have been to the baffled contemporary audience at its premiere. Terse phrasing, hairpin dynamics (the crescendi remind me of an F1 car snarling through the turn) and fast (if rather unvaried) tempi create an memorably dramatic effect. The brass are blunt, hard, but blend well; strings lean, gutty, growling. Yet Dausgaard can find the softness and gentleness in the winds to render the trios as pastoral water-colours.
In a recording as light and transparent as this, the contrapuntal network of cross-reference in the original score is compellingly clear.

Superficially similar in its tempi and phrasing to Dausgaard, the ORR/John Eliot Gardiner recording sounds brighter and sharper, very dynamic and rhythmically energised in the outer-movements and thrilling in the climaxes; subtly restrained dynamics through the scherzo (good - you need some light and shade somewhere…), with no underlined expressiveness in the romanze and the trios. The lyrical passages may seem a little unyielding, but the wondrous flute-led textural delicacy of the trio (Gluck’s Dance of the Blessed Spirits comes to mind) is seduction enough - classic JEG, really, so aware in the music, in its very sound, of tradition before and around the work itself. So one revels in the wild contrasts of texture and dynamic, the instrumental colours, the blended transparencies of winds/brass, the sheer physical thrill of the conclusion. Surprisingly for JEG or not, the impression left is dashingly Romantic and Heroic. Very true-to-the-spirit, surely.

The only drawback to Harnoncourt's superbly-recorded COE recording of the original, a longterm favourite, is the oddly statuesque à la Polonaise tempo (reminiscent of the Violin Concerto) at the start of the finale, with a sudden increase to vivace later. It doesn't wear well, a shame as the COE sound gorgeously warm and lyrical (Harnoncourt very restrained through the Romanze, and lingering lovingly over the trio) but with plenty of dynamic attack and bite - and as ever they are a truly refined, virtuoso group, compelling attention by their sheer quality, as the recording does by its sound. But otherwise Harnoncourt's reading is as bar-by-bar thought-through and fascinating as ever - and still a favourite, alongside the fiery brilliance of JEG.

(All off CDs)

[vibratoforever]

If still a little stiffly-articulated and sonically “grey”, Dausgaard with the Swedish CO brings off an 1841 4th quite as startling as it must have been to the baffled contemporary audience at its premiere. Terse phrasing, hairpin dynamics (the crescendi remind me of an F1 car snarling through the turn) and fast (if rather unvaried) tempi create an memorably dramatic effect. The brass are blunt, hard, but blend well; strings lean, gutty, growling. Yet Dausgaard can find the softness and gentleness in the winds to render the trios as pastoral water-colours.
In a recording as light and transparent as this, the contrapuntal network of cross-reference in the original score is compellingly clear.

Superficially similar in its tempi and phrasing to Dausgaard, the ORR/John Eliot Gardiner recording sounds brighter and sharper, very dynamic and rhythmically energised in the outer-movements and thrilling in the climaxes; subtly restrained dynamics through the scherzo (good - you need some light and shade somewhere…), with no underlined expressiveness in the romanze and the trios. The lyrical passages may seem a little unyielding, but the wondrous flute-led textural delicacy of the trio (Gluck’s Dance of the Blessed Spirits comes to mind) is seduction enough - classic JEG, really, so aware in the music, in its very sound, of tradition before and around the work itself. So one revels in the wild contrasts of texture and dynamic, the instrumental colours, the blended transparencies of winds/brass, the sheer physical thrill of the conclusion. Surprisingly for JEG or not, the impression left is dashingly Romantic and Heroic. Very true-to-the-spirit, surely.

The only drawback to Harnoncourt's superbly-recorded COE recording of the original, a longterm favourite, is the oddly statuesque à la Polonaise tempo (reminiscent of the Violin Concerto) at the start of the finale, with a sudden increase to vivace later. It doesn't wear well, a shame as the COE sound gorgeously warm and lyrical (Harnoncourt very restrained through the Romanze, and lingering lovingly over the trio) but with plenty of dynamic attack and bite - and as ever they are a truly refined, virtuoso group, compelling attention by their sheer quality, as the recording does by its sound. But otherwise Harnoncourt's reading is as bar-by-bar thought-through and fascinating as ever - and still a favourite, alongside the fiery brilliance of JEG.

On the strength of that I wasted 25 minutes listening to the JEG. Truly dire, a bandmaster at best, plenty of rhythm but no line. Listening to Furtwangler and Wand restored my faith in the music.

[jayne lee wilson]

On the strength of that I wasted 25 minutes listening to the JEG. Truly dire, a bandmaster at best, plenty of rhythm but no line. Listening to Furtwangler and Wand restored my faith in the music.

Well there's a surprise! Perhaps you could give me a link to Furtwängler's or Wand's performances of the 1841 score? I can't imagine how I missed those...!

***
The Original and Revised versions of Schumann's 4th - 10 years apart, 1841/51 - feel very different and should sound very different, as in Gardiner's recordings they undoubtedly and very splendidly do. Chamber Orchestras and Period Instrument Ensembles really come into their own here, in being able to delineate those differences so clearly and vividly.

The contrasting results are every bit as significant as those of various Bruckner Symphony Editions, for example.
Gardiner's 1851 4th (which I've just heard again), much warmer and more homogeneous with its larger string complement, stronger basslines and blazingly powerful brasses sounds quite magnificently Brahmsian. Extraordinary, revelatory performance.

[verismissimo]

On the strength of that I wasted 25 minutes listening to the JEG. Truly dire, a bandmaster at best, plenty of rhythm but no line. Listening to Furtwangler and Wand restored my faith in the music.

You must stop inflicting this sort of thing on yourself, vibratoforever. Or find a new name.

[BBMmk2]

If still a little stiffly-articulated and sonically “grey”, Dausgaard with the Swedish CO brings off an 1841 4th quite as startling as it must have been to the baffled contemporary audience at its premiere. Terse phrasing, hairpin dynamics (the crescendi remind me of an F1 car snarling through the turn) and fast (if rather unvaried) tempi create an memorably dramatic effect. The brass are blunt, hard, but blend well; strings lean, gutty, growling. Yet Dausgaard can find the softness and gentleness in the winds to render the trios as pastoral water-colours.
In a recording as light and transparent as this, the contrapuntal network of cross-reference in the original score is compellingly clear.

Superficially similar in its tempi and phrasing to Dausgaard, the ORR/John Eliot Gardiner recording sounds brighter and sharper, very dynamic and rhythmically energised in the outer-movements and thrilling in the climaxes; subtly restrained dynamics through the scherzo (good - you need some light and shade somewhere…), with no underlined expressiveness in the romanze and the trios. The lyrical passages may seem a little unyielding, but the wondrous flute-led textural delicacy of the trio (Gluck’s Dance of the Blessed Spirits comes to mind) is seduction enough - classic JEG, really, so aware in the music, in its very sound, of tradition before and around the work itself. So one revels in the wild contrasts of texture and dynamic, the instrumental colours, the blended transparencies of winds/brass, the sheer physical thrill of the conclusion. Surprisingly for JEG or not, the impression left is dashingly Romantic and Heroic. Very true-to-the-spirit, surely.

The only drawback to Harnoncourt's superbly-recorded COE recording of the original, a longterm favourite, is the oddly statuesque à la Polonaise tempo (reminiscent of the Violin Concerto) at the start of the finale, with a sudden increase to vivace later. It doesn't wear well, a shame as the COE sound gorgeously warm and lyrical (Harnoncourt very restrained through the Romanze, and lingering lovingly over the trio) but with plenty of dynamic attack and bite - and as ever they are a truly refined, virtuoso group, compelling attention by their sheer quality, as the recording does by its sound. But otherwise Harnoncourt's reading is as bar-by-bar thought-through and fascinating as ever - and still a favourite, alongside the fiery brilliance of JEG.

(All off CDs)

I rather like Harnoncort’ interpretations, generally speaking, so I hope that à la Polonaise movement won’t spoil anything?

[mikealdren]

It'll be 'Live from the studio.......................'

[Barbirollians]

William Mival clearly not a fan of the three recent chamber orchestra versions !

YNS - skittish and flippant

Ticciati - almost sounds like Rossini in places

Dausgaard at least better than the other two

Suggesting Harnoncourt much better than any of them.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I was really looking forward to this, but then it turned out to be a twofer.