BaL 27.03.21 - Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 24 in C minor K.491

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

HC Robbins Landon makes the point that with the fortepiano Mozart would have accompanied the orchestra during the Tuttis . He thought modern Steinways wholly unsuitable for that. By No 24 had this practice died out? If not do any of the HIPP recordings attempt it?

Yes, he probably would have done, as that was the way he would have kept the orchestra together. However, the practice means unnecessary doubling, so if it can be avoided, surely it's better to do so.

[verismissimo]

HC Robbins Landon makes the point that with the fortepiano Mozart would have accompanied the orchestra during the Tuttis . He thought modern Steinways wholly unsuitable for that. By No 24 had this practice died out? If not do any of the HIPP recordings attempt it?

Robert Levin always accompanied in tuttis on the occasions I saw him with OAE. No K491 from him, sadly.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, he probably would have done, as that was the way he would have kept the orchestra together. However, the practice means unnecessary doubling, so if it can be avoided, surely it's better to do so.

Or it was an expected part of the 18th century experience along with improvised fill-ins and cadenzas? Once or twice I’ve seen concert pianists on Steinways play along with the orchestra to get their hand in . Violinists do it quite often though that should be less obvious.

[cloughie]

I rather liked de Larrocha / Solti, but alas, I can't find it, or indeed any reference to it, as a "purchasable" entity!
Any help humbly and appreciatively accepted.... Thank you.

It is also on Amazon if you google in Mozart Larrocha. PCs24-27 but seems that only downloads are available as with Presto but the price on both cases is for all 4 concerti so not too bad, Presto cheaper.
PC24/26 COE and PC25/27 LPO.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'lll listen later, but even if BaL is now supposed to be a "personal selection" it is surely dereliction of critical duty to ignore a recording like Brautigam, in view of the fact the BIS cycle (which began some years ago now!) is one of greatest achievements in the history of Mozart recordings - towering, authoritative. A brief acknowledgement of a single HIPPs recording (and one of the earliest) now seems a very dated approach, shallow in its critical awareness. There was a great burgeoning of interest in the piano in the late 18thC, both from composers and those wanting to play music at home; the development was multiple and rapid.

As Bryn has said, complaints about a lack of sustain on the early pianos (which, as recordings and notes reveal, were all very varied and distinct maker-to-maker, themselves, far more so than the modern concert grand) shows no attempt to appreciate their contemporary role.
Viewing this from that strange ahistorical perspective which assumes that 18th or early 19thC pianos "could only get better". This seems to ignore their true place in the creation and performance of the music, why composers wrote for them as they did, with their sound in mind, and learned by performing on them. Which was usually, of course, in relatively small acoustical spaces, with all that implies (a crucial point, often overlooked.).

As it happens, my modern choice (or one of them) could have been Richard Goode, whose series with The Orpheus I bought several of as they appeared. So that's some incentive to listen to BaL, though I might return to Goode instead...

[edashtav]

A ‘Goode’ result from an unrepresentative, microscopic (8/250+) sample.

[CallMePaul]

Overall first choice is Richard Goode, with Malcolm Bilson if you prefer a 'period' instrument.

According to the Presto website, Goode is download only and Bilson a Presto CD. I guess that reviewers (or AMcG) are not allowed to mention Presto CDs as this might be seen as a form of advertising and/or a preference for one retailer over others. Several of the other recordings discussed are also download only, which is not the preferred option for most classical buyers. When will the producers of this programme, and the reviewers, wake up to the fact that CD is still the preferred option for the classical market and recommend at least one single CD option? I will labour this point until someone takes notice of it but I suspect that the BBC would pay no notice if I complained to them.

Having said that, I was very disappointed with this edition. The selection of recordings discussed was wacky in the extreme and too few to consider properly. For me the fault is not with the involvement of AMcG but with the shortlist system, forcing reviewers to discount many fine recordings (why no Brendel or Brautigam, for instance?). I accept that there are too many recordings of a work such as this or next week's Chaykovskiy 5 for all to be discussed, but a larger selection could still be made.

PS - "Chaykovskiy" is how the composer's name is transcribed according to the internationally accepted Library of Congress system. "Tchaikovsky" is an old French way of writing his name that somehow has become generally ccepted in English.

[vinteuil]

PS - "Chaykovskiy" is how the composer's name is transcribed according to the internationally accepted Library of Congress system. "Tchaikovsky" is an old French way of writing his name that somehow has become generally accepted in English.

... yes, Tchaikovsky is the generally accepted spelling in English



:sigh:

Other spellings are of course available -

"The modern transliterations of Russian produce the following results for 'Пётр Ильич Чайковский' —

ISO 9: Pëtr Ilʹič Čajkovskij,
ALA-LC: Pëtr Ilʹich Chaĭkovskiĭ,
BGN/PCGN: Pëtr Il’ich Chaykovskiy"

- as for himself?

" He used to sign his name/was known as P. Tschaïkowsky/Pierre Tschaïkowsky in French, and Peter Tschaikowsky in German, spellings also displayed on several of his scores' title pages in their first printed editions alongside or in place of his native name."




.

[ardcarp]

A very good start to this BaL, I think. A rational comparison of performing styles, and highly informative. I just wish it wasn't affected by unnecessary twoferism.

Lucy Parham was quietly authoritative, I thought, but how does anyone survey the wealth of versions out there by referring only to eight?

Malcolm Bilson if you prefer a 'period' instrument

...which she prefaced by saying something along the lines of, "if you want to hear it as Mozart did". That's a bit of a claim for even the Hippest of Hipsters!

[Ein Heldenleben]

According to the Presto website, Goode is download only and Bilson a Presto CD. I guess that reviewers (or AMcG) are not allowed to mention Presto CDs as this might be seen as a form of advertising and/or a preference for one retailer over others. Several of the other recordings discussed are also download only, which is not the preferred option for most classical buyers. When will the producers of this programme, and the reviewers, wake up to the fact that CD is still the preferred option for the classical market and recommend at least one single CD option? I will labour this point until someone takes notice of it but I suspect that the BBC would pay no notice if I complained to them.

Having said that, I was very disappointed with this edition. The selection of recordings discussed was wacky in the extreme and too few to consider properly. For me the fault is not with the involvement of AMcG but with the shortlist system, forcing reviewers to discount many fine recordings (why no Brendel or Brautigam, for instance?). I accept that there are too many recordings of a work such as this or next week's Chaykovskiy 5 for all to be discussed, but a larger selection could still be made.

PS - "Chaykovskiy" is how the composer's name is transcribed according to the internationally accepted Library of Congress system. "Tchaikovsky" is an old French way of writing his name that somehow has become generally ccepted in English.

You raise an interesting point . I wouldn’t be surprised if streams via subscription now vastly outnumber both CD sales and digital downloads in both the classical and pop worlds . Which makes one wonder what the point of BAL is because I am not sure many “ build a library “ any more . They pay for a search engine and access to a limitless one.
Qubuz seem to adding new releases quicker than I can listen to them including a Naxos disc of symphonies by Fisher that must be the shortest in the repertory.

[richardfinegold]

I'lll listen later, but even if BaL is now supposed to be a "personal selection" it is surely dereliction of critical duty to ignore a recording like Brautigam, in view of the fact the BIS cycle (which began some years ago now!) is one of greatest achievements in the history of Mozart recordings - towering, authoritative. A brief acknowledgement of a single HIPPs recording (and one of the earliest) now seems a very dated approach, shallow in its critical awareness. There was a great burgeoning of interest in the piano in the late 18thC, both from composers and those wanting to play music at home; the development was multiple and rapid.

As Bryn has said, complaints about a lack of sustain on the early pianos (which, as recordings and notes reveal, were all very varied and distinct maker-to-maker, themselves, far more so than the modern concert grand) shows no attempt to appreciate their contemporary role.
Viewing this from that strange ahistorical perspective which assumes that 18th or early 19thC pianos "could only get better". This seems to ignore their true place in the creation and performance of the music, why composers wrote for them as they did, with their sound in mind, and learned by performing on them. Which was usually, of course, in relatively small acoustical spaces, with all that implies (a crucial point, often overlooked.).

As it happens, my modern choice (or one of them) could have been Richard Goode, whose series with The Orpheus I bought several of as they appeared. So that's some incentive to listen to BaL, though I might return to Goode instead...

These are old arguments that seem to recycle here every time a fortepiano version of a Classical Era piece doesn’t get the palm in these quasi competitions. Fwiw, I checked the Arkiv Music website that divides its recordings by CDs and downloads. There are currently 113 CD versions, but no doubt some of those are duplicates between individual discs and multi disc collections. I counted 8 fortepiano editions, and some of those may be duplicates as well (Bilson, for example, is listed twice). I may have missed a few fp editions, but even if we add a few, it would seem that the ratio of modern to forte piano recordings is 1 in 10. If the BAL considered 8 recordings, having 1 fp is consistent with that ratio.
I prefer modern piano, one major reason being that it is much easier to maintain legato with a sustain pedal (when I took lessons, I had a teacher who use to kick me in the shin to get my heavy foot off the damn pedal). Mozart wrote that his music should flow like oil, which to me indicates he valued legato playing. Most fp recordings have the soloist engaging in ornamentation, as has been noted in this thread, to compensate for the legato issue. I listened to Brautigan just now, and I loved it (except for the really weird BIS cover photo). The exceptional recording and the energetic Cologne Chamber Orchestra help the cause, and the slow movement clocks in at a lesser timing than any in my collection. However, Brautigan also tends to split chords (dyssynchrony of his hands) at the beginning of longer phrases, and uses a fair amount of rubato where he plays the longer phrases a bit quicker and and relaxes slightly in the shorter end of the phrase. All of that fills the spaces between notes. It is all done tastefully and in a way that doesn’t call attention to itself.
The great is the enemy of the good. There are so many great recordings of this piece that not cracking the top eight (a very personal top eight) really doesn’t amount to anything

[jayne lee wilson]

These are old arguments that seem to recycle here every time a fortepiano version of a Classical Era piece doesn’t get the palm in these quasi competitions. Fwiw, I checked the Arkiv Music website that divides its recordings by CDs and downloads. There are currently 113 CD versions, but no doubt some of those are duplicates between individual discs and multi disc collections. I counted 8 fortepiano editions, and some of those may be duplicates as well (Bilson, for example, is listed twice). I may have missed a few fp editions, but even if we add a few, it would seem that the ratio of modern to forte piano recordings is 1 in 10. If the BAL considered 8 recordings, having 1 fp is consistent with that ratio.
I prefer modern piano, one major reason being that it is much easier to maintain legato with a sustain pedal (when I took lessons, I had a teacher who use to kick me in the shin to get my heavy foot off the damn pedal). Mozart wrote that his music should flow like oil, which to me indicates he valued legato playing. Most fp recordings have the soloist engaging in ornamentation, as has been noted in this thread, to compensate for the legato issue. I listened to Brautigan just now, and I loved it (except for the really weird BIS cover photo). The exceptional recording and the energetic Cologne Chamber Orchestra help the cause, and the slow movement clocks in at a lesser timing than any in my collection. However, Brautigan also tends to split chords (dyssynchrony of his hands) at the beginning of longer phrases, and uses a fair amount of rubato where he plays the longer phrases a bit quicker and and relaxes slightly in the shorter end of the phrase. All of that fills the spaces between notes. It is all done tastefully and in a way that doesn’t call attention to itself.
The great is the enemy of the good. There are so many great recordings of this piece that not cracking the top eight (a very personal top eight) really doesn’t amount to anything

It seems to me highly contentious to suggest that ornamentation was used to "compensate for the legato issue". Rubato is also an expressive device used widely today with modern instruments too, so it is hard to see this or ornamentation being an infill for missing sustains on early pianos.

No, as much scholarly research has shown, ornamentation, rubato and improvisation were used by Mozart and others in performance because their approach was essentially creative: they would hardly ever play the concerto the same way twice. Mozart often played his own music without writing it out fully, and there are many passages in the piano concertos whose melodic line sounds quite bare and simple, crying out for ornament and improvisation, but in the 20thC we came to see them as too preciously, reverentially Mozartian to touch. It is a good thing that more pianists are returning to such practices now. (Which isn't to deny the beauty of the simple line itself).
Remember too, that the violin repertoire (especially the highly influential Italian School) was played with at least as much use of such devices, so this isn't just about fortepianos or their supposed limitations (which often had greater variety of pedalling than the modern concert grand). All this was a characteristic of the performance practice of the time, when the music was nearly always - new music.
(Well-researched essay on this here - https://www.tutorhunt.com/resource/17087/)

Surely if Mozart said his music should "flow like oil" he was conceiving it in contemporary instrumental terms. Have you found a quote where he complains about the inability of his instruments to do this? Like Beethoven, he was a keen early adopter of the piano and wrote much music for it: it was the sound he conceived the music for, the instruments he wrote it upon. Do you think Mozart's Violin Sonatas balance better, reveal their subtleties more lucidly, with a modern violin and concert grand? Or with the fortepiano accompanying a baroque violin?

Call my arguments old if you wish (they are never essentially about "who won BaL"), but they never seem to be fully understood, most especially the point about the smaller acoustics Mozart would have known and played in; thought about and wrote his music in respect of. The modern grand with all its sustaining legato, could easily have overwhelmed such venues, not to mention the ears of the composer and their listeners.
In such situations, one may easily imagine the Mozartian Oil turning rather crude and treacly...

***

NB: Don't confuse the Kölner Akademie which plays on the Brautigam BIS Mozart recordings under Willens, with the Cologne Chamber Orchestra. Willen's band are exclusively period-instument of course, but the CCO are a modern-instrument group, though influenced by HIPPs....as their website makes clear:
"From 1976 to 1986, the Cologne Chamber Orchestra performed exclusively on historical instruments and under the name Capella Clementina. During this time, Helmut Müller-Brühl created benchmarks for historically informed performance practice and the revival of baroque musical theatre. Since 1987 the Cologne Chamber Orchestra has transferred the insights gained during this period to its performances on modern instruments. Thus, today the Cologne Chamber Orchestra is a formation which is historically informed and inspired, yet commands a modern sound, enabling it to perform a repertoire ranging from the baroque to classical works, classical modernism and contemporary pieces."

***
I'll post a review of the Goode (which I bought enthusiastically on its release) shortly.....

[Richard Barrett]

Which makes one wonder what the point of BAL is because I am not sure many “ build a library “ any more . They pay for a search engine and access to a limitless one.

I don't think there's much point in it keeping that title! - having some pointers as to how one might negotiate that limitless library can probably still be an attractive proposition, but I agree there isn't much point in having "winners". Witness the comments here on Brautigam "versus" Sofronitsky. There's no need to choose between them.

As for the "Mozart would have preferred" argument, surely that's just so 20th century...

[cloughie]

I don't think there's much point in it keeping that title! - having some pointers as to how one might negotiate that limitless library can probably still be an attractive proposition, but I agree there isn't much point in having "winners". Witness the comments here on Brautigam "versus" Sofronitsky. There's no need to choose between them.

As for the "Mozart would have preferred" argument, surely that's just so 20th century...

Then some of us are! I lived in it for over 2/3 of my life

[Ein Heldenleben]

In reply to Jayne’s lengthy post where she accurately summarises scholarship on late 18th century performance practice - what I really wanted to hear today on BAL were all the various cadenzas and improvised fill ins to work out whether I could live with hearing them more than once !
I would love to hear a live perf where the pianist went in having prepared nothing ( apart from the written notes obvs] and lived on the edge....