BaL 27.03.21 - Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 24 in C minor K.491

[jayne lee wilson]

Just been reading The Denis Matthews guide to Beethoven Piano Sonatas. He thinks the decorations were not so much a product of lack of sustain but a result of the harpsichord having little dynamic range and so interest in the melodic line had to be sustained through decoration. This performance technique became ingrained and carried over into fortepiano playing.

AS I outlined in #103 (and you were gracious enough to acknowledge) there is a great deal more to it than this....see the essay I linked to in #103 for a more extended consideration, and remember the vital point that ornamentation was also used extensively in the violin repertoire of the time.

So it is absolutely not just about some supposed deficiency in the fortepiano, the many very distinct models of which have their own characters, often a wide choice of pedalling, and many advantages over the modern grand in classical repertoire; as I said, sustain, (and for that matter dynamic range) become very different qualities in smaller acoustic settings with smaller ensembles, and I feel we need to get away from the outdated concept of either/or pejorative/honorific comparisons, seeing each as it is in the complex instrumental evolution. Bösendorfers go back to the 1820s, after all...

It would be useful if those who tend to dislike some generic "fortepiano sound" would offer us all some examples (from 491 or elsewhere) of where they think the supposed limitations obtain; of where, say, the individual pianist's ornamentation clearly compensates for the lack of sustain, etc.

[Ein Heldenleben]

AS I outlined in #103 (and you were gracious enough to acknowledge) there is a great deal more to it than this....see the essay I linked to in #103 for a more extended consideration, and remember the vital point that ornamentation was also used extensively in the violin repertoire of the time.

So it is absolutely not just about some supposed deficiency in the fortepiano, the many very distinct models of which have their own characters, often a wide choice of pedalling, and many advantages over the modern grand in classical repertoire; as I said, sustain, (and for that matter dynamic range) become very different qualities in smaller acoustic settings with smaller ensembles, and I feel we need to get away from the outdated concept of either/or pejorative/honorific comparisons, seeing each as it is in the complex instrumental evolution. Bösendorfers go back to the 1820s, after all...

It would be useful if those who tend to dislike some generic "fortepiano sound" would offer us all some examples (from 491 or elsewhere) of where they think the supposed limitations obtain; of where, say, the individual pianist's ornamentation clearly compensates for the lack of sustain, etc.

Yes I’m not convinced by the decorate to cover lack of sustain argument. It’s interesting that we have now virtually a piano monculture ( 95 per cent Steinway?) where we once had creative diversity . I think that’s a pity . It’s not just artistic choice - there’s monopoly power being used as well in my view ...

[Wolfram]

The numerals are there in Arabic form. Amusing that there is no K. 467.

Present in the 5 disc set are:

K. 271
K. 453
K. 456
K. 459
K. 466
K. 488 x 2
K. 491
K. 503
K. 595

The '5th' disc has recordings from 1981 (K. 488 and K. 453).

Thanks Bryn. I wasn't aware of his two earlier recordings. I have the first four discs on the original separate releases, but as K. 453 is a favoutite of mine, and I like RG very much, I will try to see if I can find the 1981 recordings as a separate release.

[cloughie]

The numerals are there in Arabic form. Amusing that there is no K. 467.

Present in the 5 disc set are:

K. 271
K. 453
K. 456
K. 459
K. 466
K. 488 x 2
K. 491
K. 503
K. 595

The '5th' disc has recordings from 1981 (K. 488 and K. 453).

Does that make you mad again? No 482 or 537 also!

[Wolfram]

Does that make you mad again? No 482 or 537 also!

I remember in an interview at the time that RG said quite clearly that the recordings with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra were never going to be a complete set of the concertos, or even a full series of the late ones. But I don't remember him ever giving the reasons for his selections and omissions. I suspect that he just set down those that he wanted to; the ones that he had a special affinity with perhaps. Those that they did record are so good that it is quite frustrating that they didn't do the lot.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes I’m not convinced by the decorate to cover lack of sustain argument. It’s interesting that we have now virtually a piano monculture ( 95 per cent Steinway?) where we once had creative diversity . I think that’s a pity . It’s not just artistic choice - there’s monopoly power being used as well in my view ...

Absolutely... Stephen Hough used a Bösendorfer (the "Vienna Concert Model") in his outstanding set of the Beethoven Concertos with Lintu last year (in fact he used two - one for the live concert recordings, a second for the studio tapings after he and Lintu decided they needed to do them all again......), and what a difference their sonorities made...

[Bryn]

Does that make you mad again? No 482 or 537 also!

I simply found it amusing that the concerto boosted to great prominence by the inclusion of its 'slow movement', in a popular film, had been passed by.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Absolutely... Stephen Hough used a Bösendorfer (the "Vienna Concert Model") in his outstanding set of the Beethoven Concertos with Lintu last year (in fact he used two - one for the live concert recordings, a second for the studio tapings after he and Lintu decided they needed to do them all again......), and what a difference their sonorities made...

Did they do them all again - that really surprises me . I heard SH live in the Emperor once ( on a Steinway ) - didn’t drop a note...

[jayne lee wilson]

Did they do them all again - that really surprises me . I heard SH live in the Emperor once ( on a Steinway ) - didn’t drop a note...

"We didn't use a single thing from the live concert recordings - not a thing. We changed pianos and started all over again" (SH).

They had done 5 days of patching after recording the concertos live on two nights. But Hough wasn't happy with the balance or the piano sound itself, so suggested to Lintu that they should scrap it all and begin anew..
"Why don't we just start again? We've played them; we've gone through that process; I think it could be better..."
Lintu agreed.....

Too my ears the splendid results speak for themselves.

The full story is in Gramophone 5/2020 in the fascinating full-length feature on Hough.

[cloughie]

I simply found it amusing that the concerto boosted to great prominence by the inclusion of its 'slow movement', in a popular film, had been passed by.

I think that what he chose is a really good selection. Why 2 x K488?

[Goon525]

I think that what he chose is a really good selection. Why 2 x K488?

It’s the best concerto of the lot? (Which is saying something.)

[cloughie]

It’s the best concerto of the lot? (Which is saying something.)

So Goode he played it twice!

[Bryn]

So Goode he played it twice!