BaL 6.03.21 - Debussy: Études pour piano

[BBMmk2]

I’m glad that Jean-Yves Thibaudet won the accolade. He’s such a good pianist.

[Goon525]

I’m glad that Jean-Yves Thibaudet won the accolade. He’s such a good pianist.

Indeed he is - but he came second.

[ostuni]

Well, he was one of the runners-up, with Uchida: Jean-Efflam Bavouzet was the winner.

[Bryn]

Well, he was one of the runners-up, with Uchida: Jean-Efflam Bavouzet was the winner.

It was pretty close to a caucus race.

[Darloboy]

Maybe you think that in the 1970s (which is what I meant by "back in the day") the Gramophone's pages were a paradise of open-mindedness, but I don't remember it like that; much of the music I found most interesting, like contemporary composition or earlier music played on period instruments, was treated as a curiosity and marginal to an assumed mainstream canon (while much else of the music I found most interesting wasn't mentioned there at all), not to mention a certain British chauvinism where both recording artists and composers were concerned. My musical mind wasn't expanded by the pages of that magazine so much as by Radio 3 and my local library, and indeed by John Peel, the NME and the Old Grey Whistle Test etc. You yourself would have to admit that your preferences as far as late 20th and 21st century music are concerned could be described as somewhat conservative; I don't say that as a criticism, but just to suggest that this could well be explained by your tastes having been largely formed by publications like the Gramophone with their fairly obvious limitations.

Also, back in the day, the primary qualification for a job with Gramophone (and Radio 3 for that matter) appears to have been possession of a penis.

[Barbirollians]

Also, back in the day, the primary qualification for a job with Gramophone (and Radio 3 for that matter) appears to have been possession of a penis.

Unless you were the late Joan Chissell .

[Ein Heldenleben]

Unless you were the late Joan Chissell .

You very rarely read piano reviews of the quality of Joan Chissell’s . I believe she used to review every Wigmore Hall debutant in the days when The Times had a weekly broadsheet page of music reviews ....

[Darloboy]

Ummm... what was this thread about again? Oh yes. I wonder why so many people seem to think that Mitsuko Uchida's recording of these pieces is so much better than any of the others.

To add to the various accolades mentioned elsewhere, it was also Bryce Morrison’s top recommendation on BaL in September 91 (Garrick Ohlsson was cassette choice, promoted to first choice by David Owen Norris in October 99).

[Darloboy]

Unless you were the late Joan Chissell .

Yes, the exception that proved the rule.

[Barbirollians]

I don’t quite get the hype about Bavouzet. Rather like with FX Roth and John Wilson. I have bought their raved about records and been underwhelmed.

[kea]

I was curious also about Richard Barrett's question (why Uchida)—I've either heard high praise for Uchida's recording of the etudes, or complaints that her performance is too superficial and virtuosic, which is the kind of complaint frequently made by people who can't play the piano. So I queued up Pour les cinq doigts from Bavouzet, Uchida, Thibaudet, two other common top recommendations (Pollini and Jacobs) and the best (technically speaking) pianist who has recorded the set (Joseph Moog). My conclusions are:

- Moog is the best played (predictably), in terms of control of the piano
- Uchida is very close behind—quite honestly it's probably subjective which one would consider to be more "in control"
- Bavouzet has the widest variety of tone colour and sonority, but doesn't handle phrasing as well; the music is choppier
- Jacobs has the long line and command of the structure, but is technically subpar; and Pollini has that, too, while being technically better
- Pollini and Thibaudet are pretty good, but don't seem to have been recorded in very good sound, and both have technical difficulties in contrasting respects: Pollini's playing is a bit messy, a bit over-pedalled in places, although with superb clarity when he slows down a bit; Thibaudet comes across as too slow and unexpressive, even though he's not actually playing any slower than any of the others
- Uchida is structurally better than Bavouzet but doesn't quite reach the structural coherence of Pollini or Jacobs, due to taking a few unnecessary ritenuti
- Moog is structurally about as good as Uchida, but interprets the piece more literally, without conveying the same sense of caprice and fantasy
- With all of these said, these are all minor differences, and any discerning listener would likely be satisfied with any one of these recordings (or maybe all of them, I don't judge)

I would probably pick Uchida and Moog as the two sets I'd keep at the moment, and this hopefully explains why, but it would be ideal to get a recording from someone like Yeol Eum Son or Anna Vinnitskaya or Francesco Piemontesi, if any of them are interested.

[silvestrione]

I was curious also about Richard Barrett's question (why Uchida)—I've either heard high praise for Uchida's recording of the etudes, or complaints that her performance is too superficial and virtuosic, which is the kind of complaint frequently made by people who can't play the piano. So I queued up Pour les cinq doigts from Bavouzet, Uchida, Thibaudet, two other common top recommendations (Pollini and Jacobs) and the best (technically speaking) pianist who has recorded the set (Joseph Moog). My conclusions are:

- Moog is the best played (predictably), in terms of control of the piano
- Uchida is very close behind—quite honestly it's probably subjective which one would consider to be more "in control"
- Bavouzet has the widest variety of tone colour and sonority, but doesn't handle phrasing as well; the music is choppier
- Jacobs has the long line and command of the structure, but is technically subpar; and Pollini has that, too, while being technically better
- Pollini and Thibaudet are pretty good, but don't seem to have been recorded in very good sound, and both have technical difficulties in contrasting respects: Pollini's playing is a bit messy, a bit over-pedalled in places, although with superb clarity when he slows down a bit; Thibaudet comes across as too slow and unexpressive, even though he's not actually playing any slower than any of the others
- Uchida is structurally better than Bavouzet but doesn't quite reach the structural coherence of Pollini or Jacobs, due to taking a few unnecessary ritenuti
- Moog is structurally about as good as Uchida, but interprets the piece more literally, without conveying the same sense of caprice and fantasy
- With all of these said, these are all minor differences, and any discerning listener would likely be satisfied with any one of these recordings (or maybe all of them, I don't judge)

I would probably pick Uchida and Moog as the two sets I'd keep at the moment, and this hopefully explains why, but it would be ideal to get a recording from someone like Yeol Eum Son or Anna Vinnitskaya or Francesco Piemontesi, if any of them are interested.

An impressive and very helpful analysis, which I particularly valued and enjoyed, until I got to the names at the end, the first two of which, as the Quakers say, 'would not have occurred to me'.

[vinteuil]

An impressive and very helpful analysis, which I particularly valued and enjoyed, until I got to the names at the end, the first two of which, as the Quakers say, 'would not have occurred to me'.

... thank you for that - a particular use of language with which I was not acquainted. I see from a guide to phrases specific to Quaker use :

"“That name would not have occurred to me” : diplomatic way of indicating doubt or dissent when a Friend is being proposed for some office or post of responsibility. It is a polite way of saying that the speaker does not consider the Friend in question to be suitable for the job."

I don't know anything of Yeol Eum Son or Anna Vinnitskaya - but I infer you are not a fan. Specifically for Debussy, or more generally?

.

[silvestrione]

... thank you for that - a particular use of language with which I was not acquainted. I see from a guide to phrases specific to Quaker use :

"“That name would not have occurred to me” : diplomatic way of indicating doubt or dissent when a Friend is being proposed for some office or post of responsibility. It is a polite way of saying that the speaker does not consider the Friend in question to be suitable for the job."

I don't know anything of Yeol Eum Son or Anna Vinnitskaya - but I infer you are not a fan. Specifically for Debussy, or more generally?

.

Glad you picked me up on that, as I'm going to have to eat humble pie, having been again too quick off the mark ...my slight acquaintance with Yeol Eum Son suggests someone not yet a front-rank artist, but Anna Vinnitskaya, I'm just listening to again now, and is a very considerable artist, and I can see why Kea has mentioned her.

[Beresford]

It's a pity that the 1962 recording of the Etudes by Daniel Ericourt is no longer available, even on Qobuz.
A friend of Ravel, Debussy and Stravinsky, he was seen in the 1950's as the equal of Gieseking and Richter, in French music. A 1962 New York Times review said of his Etudes recital:
"Mr Ericourt was in excellent form, interpreting the music in a style that is thoroughly convincing because of his authority and long association with the Debussy idiom. The lovely varicolored tone he drew from the piano and his exquisite use of the pedal were basic in the playing. But one was struck again by his ability to give each work cohesion while employing great rhythmic freedom. To a large extent he achieves this by an uncanny ability to lead one phrase into another. Even when he is letting the music flow along at its most deliberate, it is clearly carried forward by these subtle transitions."

Of the pianists I have heard playing the Etudes, only Ericourt and Uchida have that quality of making me want to know what is coming next, and wanting to hear the piece again.

Debussy said, when he had finished the Etudes, a few years before his death, and after a barren year when he had to almost relearn music, "I've invested a lot of passion and faith in the future of the Etudes" and "I actually wrote only pure music". Piano music composition was never the same again.