BaL 6.03.21 - Debussy: Études pour piano

[cloughie]

Wood, trees, babies, bathwater.....

Even by 1998, the Bargain Guide was full of Naxos, Arte Nova, Mercury, RCA, Sony SBK. EMI Forte, Double Decca...HvK didn't feature on those much.
For someone with little money, having only just acquired her first CD Player, it was astounding. Into town each payday for my precious, meagre haul!

I still recall my excitement going back again and again for the Sonys when I first discovered Szell and the Cleveland...

There was a classic 50s-70s stereo inheritance for the early guides, where you would have, say, Karajan, Klemperer, Haitink, Solti or Ansermet to choose from for larger symphonic works. Dorati too. It wasn't an obsession with any individual - it was how the world was.
Like the Gramophone (and its archive today, almost 100 years old..) the Guide was, and is, a vital part of the history of recorded music - of music itself, really.
But the coverage was clearly and impressively enlarged in the 1990s and 21st C Guides, before the sheer volume of releases, the broadening of repertoire, and the multiplicity of labels made the concept of vast comprehensive telephone-directory-style guides less feasible. Over to you, RED/Gramophone...

But the Stereo Record Guides and the Penguin Guides were a rich musical culture; they taught many of us an accessible critical vocabulary and remained a great read long after they were current. They still are, at whichever page you open them.....

Not so Jayne, there was plenty of Karajan on low and mid-price DG and some on Decca!

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not going to get into the perennial arguments about (The) Gramophone, I gave up on it some years ago, I guess it may have improved in the meantime but the thing is I really don't need it any more, given that listening to new releases is no longer restricted to professional critics and the rich. I admit that I do sometimes take the Greenfield approach mentioned above, of honing in on some moment(s) that have particular importance for me before deciding to give something a proper listen, but then I'm not being paid to air my opinions in public like he was, so I can do what I like. I'm happy to be liberated from the opinions of critics. The answers to my question about why the Uchida recording of these pieces stands so far above the others just served to confirm my impression that, back in the day, their influence had a deadening effect on people's adventurousness in listening (including my own no doubt). There's no need for that any more.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes I do. I think a little earlier , late 80s/early 90s, edited by Rob Cowan. Reflected an outpouring of transfers from analogue to mid and budget priced CDs. Understandably, lacked longevity once the CD explosion died down. I think Classic CD was a competitive publication which lasted several years, edited, if memory serves, by Rob Ainsley, who incidentally has a piece in the current BBC MM.

On a more general note, I share Jayne’s love of Gramophone, having bought and devoured every issue since my first, July 1973. It’s great having access now to the entire archive via my iPad. FWIW, I think the current panel of reviewers is strong, and the magazine appears to be heading toward its centenary in 2023 in pretty good shape. Of course one doesn’t always agree with its conclusions, but it maintains a high standard, higher than BBC MM, although I do read that too.

I always bought the Penguin guides too, but my respect for them steadily diminished as its quality went down. The problem with having only three reviewers was that only one of them, Robert Layton, had much gravitas. Ivan March (although he put the thing together) was a hopelessly unreliable reviewer, and as for Ted - who to be fair did write some pretty good reviews in G, although perhaps not of the Lenny West Side Story. Have I retold the story here of a friend of mine who asked EG at a party how he managed to review so many records? At the time Ted was the Guardian’s main man as well as heavily represented in G. His response - “With many of them, I just listen to the crucial moments of a work” - which boggled my mind then and still does.

If it is ever repeated the Channel 4 doc on Opera critics is absolutely essential viewing of a very unflattering kind. Ted Greenfield maintains this po-faced mask of “I never talk about my opinions with other critics during the interval in case it affects my review “ with all the other critics looking at him trying to keep a straight face ! Hugh Canning (always only too happy to share his thoughts with any one ) wisely stayed well out of it .

[visualnickmos]

I'm not going to get into the perennial arguments about (The) Gramophone, I gave up on it some years ago, I guess it may have improved in the meantime but the thing is I really don't need it any more, given that listening to new releases is no longer restricted to professional critics and the rich. I admit that I do sometimes take the Greenfield approach mentioned above, of honing in on some moment(s) that have particular importance for me before deciding to give something a proper listen, but then I'm not being paid to air my opinions in public like he was, so I can do what I like. I'm happy to be liberated from the opinions of critics. The answers to my question about why the Uchida recording of these pieces stands so far above the others just served to confirm my impression that, back in the day, their influence had a deadening effect on people's adventurousness in listening (including my own no doubt). There's no need for that any more.

I prety much concur. I would just add, that perhaps adherence to a certain set of critics, is a bit like getting used to a certain crossword-setters; you become sort of 'trained' into their mindset. When I was first intrigued by classical music at about 14 or 15, I knew nothing about critics, music magazines, and so on, and yet I soon got my head around the idea of collecting, and what to 'look out for' - all based on nothing but my puchases and budding collection.

[gradus]

One of the uses of Spotify et al is the ability to conduct one's own comparative review of a limited number of recordings.
Its always pleasing to hear that someone else responds as you do to a recorded performance and a widely acclaimed recording attracts my attention but I lost interest in the Gramophone after 40 years and flogged them along with Hi Fi News covering the same period to a s/h equipment dealer - £100 the lot.

[Goon525]

I prety much concur. I would just add, that perhaps adherence to a certain set of critics, is a bit like getting used to a certain crossword-setters; you become sort of 'trained' into their mindset. When I was first intrigued by classical music at about 14 or 15, I knew nothing about critics, music magazines, and so on, and yet I soon got my head around the idea of collecting, and what to 'look out for' - all based on nothing but my puchases and budding collection.

I find ‘getting trained into their mindset’ one if the great benefits of long term reading. There are critics I rarely agree with, but if I’ve been reading them for years I understand their prejudices and can adjust my own opinion accordingly. But I do agree that being able to stream frees one up from over-reliance on reviewers. It’s particularly entertaining when G and B have radically divergent opinions to listen for oneself.

[Edgy 2]

Yes I do. I think a little earlier , late 80s/early 90s, edited by Rob Cowan. Reflected an outpouring of transfers from analogue to mid and budget priced CDs. Understandably, lacked longevity once the CD explosion died down. I think Classic CD was a competitive publication which lasted several years, edited, if memory serves, by Rob Ainsley, who incidentally has a piece in the current BBC MM.

On a more general note, I share Jayne’s love of Gramophone, having bought and devoured every issue since my first, July 1973. It’s great having access now to the entire archive via my iPad. FWIW, I think the current panel of reviewers is strong, and the magazine appears to be heading toward its centenary in 2023 in pretty good shape. Of course one doesn’t always agree with its conclusions, but it maintains a high standard, higher than BBC MM, although I do read that too.

I always bought the Penguin guides too, but my respect for them steadily diminished as its quality went down. The problem with having only three reviewers was that only one of them, Robert Layton, had much gravitas. Ivan March (although he put the thing together) was a hopelessly unreliable reviewer, and as for Ted - who to be fair did write some pretty good reviews in G, although perhaps not of the Lenny West Side Story. Have I retold the story here of a friend of mine who asked EG at a party how he managed to review so many records? At the time Ted was the Guardian’s main man as well as heavily represented in G. His response - “With many of them, I just listen to the crucial moments of a work” - which boggled my mind then and still does.

Ah yes, thanks

I bought every issue of Gramophone from about the same time as you but I fell out of love with the mag many years ago.
I gave away around 30 years worth of issues.

[cloughie]

Ah yes, thanks

I bought every issue of Gramophone from about the same time as you but I fell out of love with the mag many years ago.
I gave away around 30 years worth of issues.

Me too, from the mid 60s was a must have read, and the best guide to new releases and what was happening - the totally went downhill probably early 2000s.

The EMG Monthly Letter c/w the annual Art of Record Buying were the bibles of the trade - anything which achieved 2 stars and an ees was pure magic.

It is now 20 posts since Debussy was even hinted at - we have gone somewhat off topic and I hope does not indicate a level of disinterest in Claude’s Etudes!

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm not going to get into the perennial arguments about (The) Gramophone, I gave up on it some years ago, I guess it may have improved in the meantime but the thing is I really don't need it any more, given that listening to new releases is no longer restricted to professional critics and the rich. I admit that I do sometimes take the Greenfield approach mentioned above, of honing in on some moment(s) that have particular importance for me before deciding to give something a proper listen, but then I'm not being paid to air my opinions in public like he was, so I can do what I like. I'm happy to be liberated from the opinions of critics. The answers to my question about why the Uchida recording of these pieces stands so far above the others just served to confirm my impression that, back in the day, their influence had a deadening effect on people's adventurousness in listening (including my own no doubt). There's no need for that any more.

I do find that almost shocking, Richard.

That influence, educational and historical, as I tried my best to describe above, had exactly the opposite effect on me, and still does. I was subject to some dreadful snobbery from a-level music students and other bourgeois "musiclovers" who never bothered with Gramophone or Radio 3 and considered Bruckner and Mahler unlistenable, never mind Schoenberg. How could I possibly claim to love Classical Music when I couldn't even read it or play the piano?
With the Guides, that triumvirate offered me an escape into a much larger musical world. Why else did I become curious about 2VS, or Boulez or Birtwistle or Stockhausen, taping them off-air, borrowing records and reading up?

Far from deadening, they gave me new life! Showed me that I could forget the narrow attitudes that told me I was "pretending" to enjoy Webern (who they considered "noisy rubbish"....)

Of course Qobuz is now my main source for hearing New Releases, but the Gramophone (and other online sources) offer that essential perspective of the 2nd Opinion, or a 3rd or a 4th. Many other insightful features ( the current issue is a full of interest, a cracker). Contrary opinions are usually far more provocative of one's own thoughts, one's own self-questioning.

[jayne lee wilson]

I prety much concur. I would just add, that perhaps adherence to a certain set of critics, is a bit like getting used to a certain crossword-setters; you become sort of 'trained' into their mindset. When I was first intrigued by classical music at about 14 or 15, I knew nothing about critics, music magazines, and so on, and yet I soon got my head around the idea of collecting, and what to 'look out for' - all based on nothing but my puchases and budding collection.

That is a very narrow view. From the start of my listening life, I came under many influences, took in different views (on Bruckner for example). It didn't take long to learn the biases of the writers on the Stereo Guides or the wider range on Gramophone or Radio 3, to develop my own view in a continuous evolution. It was a vitally stimulating part of the educational process, to take in other contrary opinions, question them, listen again, and question your own.

How can one judge one's own knowledge or understanding of records and recording, or the lack of it, without wider reading? Take the current issue of Gramophone - brilliant classics-revisited discussion on the Kondrashin DSCH 15 and a collection survey of the Szymanowski Stabat Mater...

The Gramophone Archive reveals it as an essential part of Classical Music History. No-one would be here, discussing comparative recordings, if it (or those early Stereo Guides) had not existed.They created a culture of curiosity, a vocabulary of fine distinctions.

Record Review and BaL (whatever their current status), and contributors on this thread, are among its many heirs and beneficiaries.......and that is true even if you never read a word of them.

[Goon525]

I’m pretty much in agreement with Jayne’s last couple of postings. And incidentally, the Collection on the Szymanowski Stabat Mater had me rushing off to listen to the ‘winning’ version, easily available via Qobuz. I actually own the Rattle version (coupled with the third Symphony) which is a fine disc, but as so often happens, I’m not sure I’ve listened to it since just after its release in the mid 90s.

[visualnickmos]

That is a very narrow view. From the start of my listening life, I came under many influences, took in different views (on Bruckner for example). It didn't take long to learn the biases of the writers on the Stereo Guides or the wider range on Gramophone or Radio 3, to develop my own view in a continuous evolution. It was a vitally stimulating part of the educational process, to take in other contrary opinions, question them, listen again, and question your own.

How can one judge one's own knowledge or understanding of records and recording, or the lack of it, without wider reading? Take the current issue of Gramophone - brilliant classics-revisited discussion on the Kondrashin DSCH 15 and a collection survey of the Szymanowski Stabat Mater...

The Gramophone Archive reveals it as an essential part of Classical Music History. No-one would be here, discussing comparative recordings, if it (or those early Stereo Guides) had not existed. They created a culture of curiosity, a vocabulary of fine distinctions.

Record Review and BaL (whatever their current status), and contributors on this thread, are among its many heirs and beneficiaries.......and that is true even if you never read a word of them.

I find your first words rather arrogant and brimming with superiority. The feeling I get from your posts generally, is one of - if someone disagrees with you, their views are somehow not valid, and you continually harp on about b*****y Gramophone. You may think I have a narrow view. Quite what you mean specifically by that, is anyone's guess. Well, madam, my 'narrow view' has served me very well indeed, in my enjoyment of nearly fifty years of classical music being a major part of my life.

[cloughie]

I find your first words rather arrogant and brimming with superiority. The feeling I get from your posts generally, is one of - if someone disagrees with you, their views are somehow not valid, and you continually harp on about b*****y Gramaphone. You may think I have a narrow view. Quite what you mean specifically by that, is anyone's guess. Well, madam, my 'narrow view' has served me very well indeed, in my enjoyment of nearly fifty years of classical music being a major part of my life.

Well said vis, my ‘narrow view’ has served me very well for even longer and have no regrets over how it has developed. I became a teenager in 1960 and have enjoyed an unfinished voyage of musical discovery since then.

[Goon525]

Maybe. But at least Jayne can spell Gramophone.

[gradus]

Well said vis, my ‘narrow view’ has served me very well for even longer and have no regrets over how it has developed. I became a teenager in 1960 and have enjoyed an unfinished voyage of musical discovery since then.

Ditto.