BaL 27.02.21 - Music by Josquin des Prez

[ardcarp]

...and, apologies for l'esrit d'escalier, but

Just realised I'm related to the famous renaissance composer Clemens!
We Non Papas are a very big family

another

[Ein Heldenleben]

...OK, but if, for instance, his Mass settings had been singled out for attention, then even the most generalised of forumistas might have been interested in some comparisons of:

-the cantus firmus mass, in which a pre-existing tune appeared, mostly unchanged, in one voice of the texture, with the other voices being more or less freely composed
-the paraphrase mass, in which a pre-existing tune was used freely in all voices, and in many variations;
-the parody mass, in which a pre-existing multi-voice song appeared in whole or in part, with material from all voices in use, not just the tune;
-or even the soggetto cavato,in which the tune is drawn from the syllables of a name or phrase, eg Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae

...and since a major anniversary of a major composer is being marked, why not another programme (i.e. not a mere 40 mins) about his secular music?

PS Did EMT really say that Josquin represented a 'crucial transitional phase between Dufay and Pergolesi'?

I interpreted that as a live name slip for Palestrina as J des P died what 200 years before Pergolesi’s birth obvs ..
I do hope the 500th anniversary of his death is marked with something more substantial than this - say a 13 part series to make up for the lack of plays last year ( see Suffolk Coastals log ).

[LeMartinPecheur]

...and, apologies for l'esrit d'escalier, but



another

Thanks ardcarp

Should probably have spelled out my point fully - that not everything appearing at the end of an early composer's name is truly a modern surname. But glad someone got it in the end

I rather like Josquin Lebloitte as a name, as per Pulcinella's #4. Perhaps musical history should be reconfigured?

[Pulcinella]

I interpreted that as a live name slip for Palestrina as J des P died what 200 years before Pergolesi’s birth obvs ..

Me too, though a slip at the time of recording that maybe should have been edited out: I don't think that the BaL segment itself was live; the acoustic for AMcG seemed to change.

I do hope the 500th anniversary of his death is marked with something more substantial than this - say a 13 part series to make up for the lack of plays last year ( see Suffolk Coastals log ).

We got rather a lot of Beethoven last year, I seem to recall.

[mikealdren]

I interpreted that as a live name slip for Palestrina as J des P died what 200 years before Pergolesi’s birth obvs ..

and of course, EMT would have found
'He was the most famous European composer between Guillaume Dufay and Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina'
as the 2nd sentence on Wikipedia as part of her 'research'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Me too, though a slip at the time of recording that maybe should have been edited out: I don't think that the BaL segment itself was live; the acoustic for AMcG seemed to change.



We got rather a lot of Beethoven last year, I seem to recall.

I am not saying that Josquin is as important as LVB but in one or two books I’ve been reading he is talked of as having lifted the “expressiveness “ of music to an unparalleled level and a figure of enormous significance . That merits more than a BAL

[Ein Heldenleben]

and of course, EMT would have found
'He was the most famous European composer between Guillaume Dufay and Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina'
as the 2nd sentence on Wikipedia as part of her 'research'.

Wonder if she confused her Pierluigi’s with her Pergolesi’s ?
Easily done l..

[underthecountertenor]

Whoever the audience, any BAL must:
[a] succinctly contextualise with biog / historical / musical background at time of writing esp with JdeP who indeed may not be that well known to the audience.
[b] talk about performance practice. Esp with early music / highly specialised composers eg J dez P, where in last 40-50 yrs, there have been such critical changes in perf practice.
[c] sketch out at start likely winners but also likely losers.

AND shut AMcG up. He got in the way, this is NOT his period, he was not helpful.

It’s not her period either, judging by yesterday’s effort. At least on this occasion AMcG wasn’t getting in the way of an expert.

[Nick Armstrong]

It’s not her period either, judging by yesterday’s effort. At least on this occasion AMcG wasn’t getting in the way of an expert.

That thought struck me too.

Not knowing anything about Josquin, this BAL didn’t shock me as much as it did others. Better than nothing (or than more tearjerking), which is about all you can say about most BALs these days...

[ardcarp]

Leaving aside BAL, it is astonishing when you think about it, that Josquin is relatively rarely performed when compared with slightly later composers upon whom he had great influence. Very little of his (one thinks of an Ave Maria and his Pange Lingua Mass) is in the current cathedral repertoire, either Anglican or RC.

He was a prolific composer, even if:

The difficulties in compiling a works list for Josquin cannot be overstated. Because of his immense prestige in the early sixteenth century, many scribes and publishers did not resist the temptation of attributing anonymous or otherwise spurious works to Josquin.


On the other hand, much of his work will have been lost, so missing oeuvres could cancel out the mis-attributions.

I'm still puzzled why we hear so little of his glorious music. It's good that The Tallis Scholars have recorded some of his Masses on the Gimell label.

[Darloboy]

Hmm, lots of criticism of the reviewer but no comment on her choices, surely the most important aspect of BaL - particularly on a programme designed to give an introductory survey to a composer in a 40-50 min time slot. I think it’s a bit harsh to criticise the reviewer’s lack of depth given how much ground she had to cover. The emphasis clearly seemed to be on recent recordings given the anniversary. Does anyone feel that any significant recordings/works were missed out?

Incidentally, there was a survey on Josquin by David Fallows, the author of a book on the composer, back in January 1991, just before I started listening to BaL. I assume he would have met most forum members’ definition of an expert but there would have been fewer recordings available - but I suspect that the Tallis Scholars would have featured heavily in that programme too (although Andrew McGregor obviously didn’t).

Other than that, the only other occasion on which Josquin has featured in BaL in the last 40 years was in April 2008 (when Tess Knighton chose Ens Janequin as 1st choice for the Missa Pange Lingua) so I found this programme useful as an introduction to his other works.

[Nick Armstrong]

Does anyone feel that any significant recordings/works were missed out?

....

I found this programme useful as an introduction to his other works.

Yes I’ve been glad to have been directed towards the Capella Amsterdam and Orlando Consort recordings, and the Jacob Heringman lute disc.

The one I was surprised didn’t get a mention (iirc) was the Golden Renaissance collection by Stile Antico, who are usually well worth a listen

[BBMmk2]

That thought struck me too.

Not knowing anything about Josquin, this BAL didn’t shock me as much as it did others. Better than nothing (or than more tearjerking), which is about all you can say about most BALs these days...

Really? I must’ve not heard that part. Why on earth didn’t they have someone that was an acknowledged expert in the field? I’m sure there are quite a few?