BaL 27.02.21 - Music by Josquin des Prez

[LeMartinPecheur]

All very well arguing about modern day versions / ensembles, BUT if the composer had heard something totally other, AND we might be able to re-construct after a fashion what he would have heard, why didn't we?

That surely is the vital crux and a very big If as this book shows. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supernatura...s=books&sr=1-1
IIRC (my copy currently packed for moving), it claims with strong evidence that the current falsetto countertenor voice is a recent (19-20th century) invention that would have had no equivalent in the renaissance; the male falsettist hadn't yet been invented. The reason? Humanity has increased considerably in height and weight since then - think of the between-deck height on HMS Victory for example - and this has lowered our voices very markedly. This even shows in the fact that hymns in Victorian hymnbooks are now a considerable stretch for modern congregations, so that organists who can transpose at sight are a big asset. It also explains the ever-increasing shortage of true tenors, with many choral societies relying on baritones straining upward

The countertenor 'voice' starts from the fact that parts in renaissance polyphony may be marked as such. They are a part that sings against (Latin contra) the tenor, and NB the 'tenor' marking against a score's 'tenor part' may be more a designation that this part contains the plainsong tune around which the composition is built than an indication of voice-type. (The tenor part holds the main tune, Latin verb tenere, to hold.] The countertenor part is often a deliberate ornamentation of the then-familiar tenor tune, rather akin to the modern descants to well-known hymns and carols. There may be little difference in average pitch between tenor and countertenor parts in the same composition, certainly much less than between today's countertenor and tenor voices.

Crucially and sadly, all this means that it is actually impossible to 're-construct...what [Josquin] would have heard'. We may prefer adult male voices, or a cathedral SATB choir with alto boys' voices, but we should bear in mind that these are choices that Josquin would struggle to comprehend. Every modern performance is necessarily a compromise.

[DracoM]

Oh yes, indeed - and big thx for exegesis - which actually makes that BAL even less useful, or, rather, did not explain fully enough to contextualise the material.

All it would have taken was a few remarks/caveats about audience / ensembles in JdeP's days at the very start to clear the pitch [cricket metaphor btw].

Hence my slight irritation at what was NOT said.

NB: made me ever so slightly just begin to wonder how much EMT was leaning her preferred takes towards ensembles with her mates in them?

erm...........Cynical, moi?

[kuligin]

I found this a very disappointing episode.

I would have preferred a far more scholarly approach to the history, background and performance practice, instead we got a generalised chat.

It is impossible in the time to cover the whole output of Josquin so I would have preferred concentrating on the Masses, with examples of different approaches and why some are preferable to others in her opinion.

A missed opportunity.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That surely is the vital crux and a very big If as this book shows. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supernatura...s=books&sr=1-1
IIRC (my copy currently packed for moving), it claims with strong evidence that the current falsetto countertenor voice is a recent (19-20th century) invention that would have had no equivalent in the renaissance; the male falsettist hadn't yet been invented. The reason? Humanity has increased considerably in height and weight since then - think of the between-deck height on HMS Victory for example - and this has lowered our voices very markedly. This even shows in the fact that hymns in Victorian hymnbooks are now a considerable stretch for modern congregations, so that organists who can transpose at sight are a big asset.

The countertenor 'voice' starts from the fact that parts in renaissance polyphony may be marked as such. They are a part that sings against (Latin contra) the tenor, and NB the 'tenor' marking against a score's 'tenor part' may be more a designation that this part contains the plainsong tune around which the composition is built than an indication of voice-type. (The tenor part holds the main tune, Latin verb tenere, to hold.] The countertenor part is often a deliberate ornamentation of the then-familiar tenor tune, rather akin to the modern descants to well-known hymns and carols. There may be little difference in average pitch between tenor and countertenor parts in the same composition, certainly much less than between today's countertenor and tenor voices.

Crucially and sadly, all this means that it is actually impossible to 're-construct...what [Josquin] would have heard'. We may prefer adult male voices, or a cathedral SATB choir with alto boys' voices, but we should bear in mind that these are choices that Josquin would struggle to comprehend. Every modern performance is necessarily a compromise.

Very interesting post. Forgive my ignorance but is there a chance that castrati might have sung the countertenor part? A 1985 article I’m reading in JSTOR suggests male falsetto was used by Josquin. As it’s 97 pages long of quite dense physiology it might take a bit of time to ingest!

OURNAL ARTICLE
Workshop IV. Voice Types in Josquin's Music
Howard M. Brown and Rebecca Stewart
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Deel 35, No. 1

The origin of the word tenor I had forgotten - would that some of today’s opera tenors clung more to its original meaning!

[Pulcinella]

Very interesting post. Forgive my ignorance but is there a chance that castrati might have sung the countertenor part? A 1985 article I’m reading in JSTOR suggests male falsetto was used by Josquin. As it’s 97 pages long of quite dense physiology it might take a bit of time to ingest!

OURNAL ARTICLE
Workshop IV. Voice Types in Josquin's Music
Howard M. Brown and Rebecca Stewart
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Deel 35, No. 1

The origin of the word tenor I had forgotten - would that some of today’s opera tenors clung more to its original meaning!

It's interesting that Rebecca Stewart, one of the co-authors, is the director of Cappella Pratensis, some of whose recordings of music by Josquin I have (and listened to with great pleasure last week, as mentioned on the What Classical ..... thread).
I certainly like the sound that her group produces.

[DracoM]

I found this a very disappointing episode.

I would have preferred a far more scholarly approach to the history, background and performance practice, instead we got a generalised chat.

It is impossible in the time to cover the whole output of Josquin so I would have preferred concentrating on the Masses, with examples of different approaches and why some are preferable to others in her opinion.

A missed opportunity.

BAL / RR more and more regularly forgetting who their audience really is maybe? Partic with a composer like JdeP?
Imagine if R5L covered top order games of Prem Lge and talked only about the colour of the players' shirts or a training game?

[Simon Biazeck]

Very interesting post. Forgive my ignorance but is there a chance that castrati might have sung the countertenor part? A 1985 article I’m reading in JSTOR suggests male falsetto was used by Josquin. As it’s 97 pages long of quite dense physiology it might take a bit of time to ingest!

OURNAL ARTICLE
Workshop IV. Voice Types in Josquin's Music
Howard M. Brown and Rebecca Stewart
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Deel 35, No. 1

The origin of the word tenor I had forgotten - would that some of today’s opera tenors clung more to its original meaning!

Sorry to butt in - they certainly did and there was much fuss amongst the Sopranisti (adult male sopranists) when two Spanish castrato brothers were admitted to the Papal Chapel Choir in 1558. See Richard Sherr's excellent and fascinating article: Ex Concordia Discors: Popes, Cardinals, Nationalities, Conflict, Deviance, and Irrational Behavior: A Crisis in the Papal Chapel in the Pontificate of Paul IV.

SBz.

[vinteuil]

.

... thin, very thin.

This is what we all need -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Companion-Richard-Sherr/dp/0198163355/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=josquin+sherr&qid=1614438988&s=books&sr=1-1

(much cheaper when I got it ... )


.

[ardcarp]

I agree, sadly, with many of the points made about this disappointing (disastrous?) BAL:

BAL / RR more and more regularly forgetting who their audience really is maybe?

I would have preferred a far more scholarly approach to the history, background and performance practice, instead we got a generalised chat.

It is impossible in the time to cover the whole output of Josquin so I would have preferred concentrating on the Masses, with examples of different approaches and why some are preferable to others in her opinion.

Crucially and sadly, all this means that it is actually impossible to 're-construct...what [Josquin] would have heard'*.

I don't think that these general surveys of a composer's works tend to work very well, and today's rather unsatisfying episode proved the point, for me, at least.

* It is of course impossible to 'know' what a composer 500 years ago would have heard. That does not mean to say that modern performers shouldn't sing/play Josquin....some of the most satisfying repertoire I discovered as a student. However, whilst I admire Elin as a singer, she really brought nothing to the table. Someone like Jeremy Summerly or, better still David Skinner might have brought more insight to a R3 audience. Especially -1 other.

And yes

I can barely express how much this BAL upset me and I will have to calm down a bit before I comment fully, if at all.

It's taken me until approx 5.30 pm to get over it.

[crb11]

It is impossible in the time to cover the whole output of Josquin so I would have preferred concentrating on the Masses, with examples of different approaches and why some are preferable to others in her opinion.

A missed opportunity.

Is this something our local experts could do here? Maybe restricting attention to a handful of representative masses to make it manageable.

[DoctorT]

BAL / RR more and more regularly forgetting who their audience really is maybe? Partic with a composer like JdeP?

But who is the intended audience? Probably not people on this forum with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Joaquin...

[ardcarp]

...OK, but if, for instance, his Mass settings had been singled out for attention, then even the most generalised of forumistas might have been interested in some comparisons of:

-the cantus firmus mass, in which a pre-existing tune appeared, mostly unchanged, in one voice of the texture, with the other voices being more or less freely composed
-the paraphrase mass, in which a pre-existing tune was used freely in all voices, and in many variations;
-the parody mass, in which a pre-existing multi-voice song appeared in whole or in part, with material from all voices in use, not just the tune;
-or even the soggetto cavato,in which the tune is drawn from the syllables of a name or phrase, eg Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae

...and since a major anniversary of a major composer is being marked, why not another programme (i.e. not a mere 40 mins) about his secular music?

PS Did EMT really say that Josquin represented a 'crucial transitional phase between Dufay and Pergolesi'?

[edashtav]

I found this a very disappointing episode.

I would have preferred a far more scholarly approach to the history, background and performance practice, instead we got a generalised chat.

It is impossible in the time to cover the whole output of Josquin so I would have preferred concentrating on the Masses, with examples of different approaches and why some are preferable to others in her opinion.

A missed opportunity.

Agreed. The first Headmaster for whom I worked was a Gunnery officer during the D-day Landings. He told me, ‘I missed the whole of France.”

[DracoM]

But who is the intended audience? Probably not people on this forum with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Joaquin...

Whoever the audience, any BAL must:
[a] succinctly contextualise with biog / historical / musical background at time of writing esp with JdeP who indeed may not be that well known to the audience.
[b] talk about performance practice. Esp with early music / highly specialised composers eg J dez P, where in last 40-50 yrs, there have been such critical changes in perf practice.
[c] sketch out at start likely winners but also likely losers.

AND shut AMcG up. He got in the way, this is NOT his period, he was not helpful.

[Pulcinella]

...
PS Did EMT really say that Josquin represented a 'crucial transitional phase between Dufay and Pergolesi'?

Yes! I did a double-take at that, and wondered if we were going to talk about Pulcinella again.