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"The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink -
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OK!
Got that drink ready? Better make it a double......
Fascinating essay from Tom, a skilful broadcaster who knows he has limited time to get his thesis across and does so quickly and vividly, which here emphasised what he sees as Bruckner’s wildness, “weirdness" , “crudity” (!?) and even “chaos”, using these terms several times. (Well, a few times too many perhaps…).
He feels too few performances express this, especially later ones, but this was a general comment and wasn't exemplified much from recent recordings (despite a good stylistic range within the examples).
There are a few problems with this view, most obviously the lack of any structural considerations. Some of the greatest Bruckner conductors are great precisely because they see the whole movement, the whole symphony in its larger span, pacing and placing the climaxes accordingly. As true of YNS as it is of Rosbaud.
But given the music’s inherently original, highly imaginative emotional swings, does this wildness really need underlining? And if Furtwangler is held to be a locus classicus of this earlier tradition of Bruckner performance, then it is a serious omission not to have Andreae (1953) in there, all four movements (!) about as dramatic and volatile as anyone could take. Adler (1952) too, whose rich, massive sound is even closer to Furtwangler’s conception.
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Anyway, if wild and weird and “chaotic” (I presume Tom means emotionally or imaginatively, not structurally…) are what you crave, (and if three historicals are two too many) you can find it closer to the present: the Berne SO/Venzago gives you all that and more; a stunning finale in those very terms, and in excellent modern sound, with wonderfully quirky winds and some lovely, lingering string lines. And plenty of very weird ideas from Venzago in the earlier movements, don’t you worry. You might want to write to your Brucknerian Representative on Earth to protest that this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed.
Just listening to this now - I genuinely feel it outdoes Furtwangler at Tom’s own game in the finale. Wow!
Venzago even gets away with a startling quick, cool and seductively swinging scherzo. The trio too, with fairytale wind voicing and hilarious extremes of pace in the strings, puts Celi and Ticciati in their place. Quite a magician, our Mario.
(You’ll have to cope with a 14’ adagio though, which throws you off the track every few minutes with its tempo-variabile and rubato; truly controversial, utterly unique, perhaps not for fans of 22-minute Celi “lit from within” as Tom put it…). Or perhaps they'd enjoy turning their Brucknerian world upside-down.
The Berne SO keep up heroically (if close to the limit sometimes, like Furtwangler’s Berlin Phil) with their conjuror’s manoeuvres in the first movement, a performance in a single breath of stunning sweep and momentum. Schubertian? Yes, as long as that includes the violent disruptions of D759, D784, etc etc…
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But then if I listen to YNS, I don't feel shortchanged by his less extreme approach; not in the least. The wide-ranging moods are all still there, beautifully and wondrously moulded; power, thrills, fluidity. And so well played…. perhaps all the better to return to and dwell upon.
Something racier for the weekend? Try Dausgaard’s hi-speed, hi-energy, headlong finale; with enough “lurching” to satisfy Mr Service. (“I’d like more lurching in my Bruckner performances”).
Broadly then, while I enjoyed Tom’s ideas and his expression of them (and the lively dialogue with Andrew) I feel the central thesis didn’t quite hold up. Furtwangler, Jochum, Celi……aren’t so unique; there are other examples which may even outdo them, old and new.
Having said which, he acknowledged the sheer complexity of assessing, let alone choosing between, Bruckner interpretations; did so with a smile; and succeeded in actually making JLW look forward to hearing Jochum again…. with new ears, I hope….Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-02-21, 01:40.Comment
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Some interesting recordings of Symphony 6 may be listened to at
I have spotted two recordings here that I mean to listen to in full.
October 2019: Heinz Roegner / RSO Berlin, recorded 2000. Originally issued as a demonstration of audio quality.
April 2016: Georg Tintner / Bohuslabv Martinu Philharmonic (Ziln, Czech Republic, recorded 1992, a few years before Tintner’s Naxos cycle with other orchestras.
Look under Downloads / Downloads of the Month. Scroll down to the appropriate month as shown above.. The word “download” may be misleading here. You can also stream each track just by clicking on it. Files are in good quality flac format. All free and apparently legal too.Comment
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Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
Great post Jayne, and not a drop has passed my lips!
"...the isle is full of noises,
Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."
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The Jochum box arrived this afternoon, curtesy of the River People. I statred to listen to the 6th, but got pressed ganged half way through the first movement into doing some gardening, so I shall have to return to it later. But I have just finished listening to the 7th which is outstanding. The slow movement is constructed in one long continuous arc culminating in a shattering climax and the descent into the coda. And there is no hint of a 'finale problem' here. Jochum propels it along nicely, it is light on its feet, but doesn't feel in any way light weight. My favoutite 7ths are Haitink in Amsterdam and Karajan in Vienna, but this one now joins them. I did not know these recordings, being familar only with Jochum's earlier DG recordings, which I did not get along with, albeit it's a long time ago now since I last heard them. These are better recorded than the DG set, if my memeory hasn't let me down. Others have commented on the brass sound which I don't find harsh or glaring at all; they balze with triumphant glory at the climax of the 7th's adagio and at the end of the finale. I think I am going to get on very nicely with this set.Comment
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For convenience (mine) I'll assume "Don't answer," refers only to my 'bay picking' prowessOriginally posted by silvestrione View Post
Only one 'e' in my handle if you please, (fails to find a faux Snooty emoji), though Loathecliffy was a temptation.
Reference to the epitome of mediocrity raised to stardom by ignorance, is purely intentional.
Add EastEnders viewing figures and you have my two (seldom checked) monitors for the UK human condition.
Back to the topic, and I am seeking experience and wisdom:- How does one lever the redoubtable M/s Lee-Wilson to listen to the Keilberth? Played at a realistic level..... the joy of the fabulous brass players pinning all to their seats .....
In return I will cautiously proceed further with Mr. Dausgaard. He committed an inappropriate micro acceleration early on in the slow movement and was suspended."Zay must not play this note, only think it" - 'Bruno Heinz Jaja', found deep within the player guidance for his masterpiece 'Punkt, Contrapunkt'.Comment
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What a glorious typo WolframOriginally posted by Wolfram View Post
"Zay must not play this note, only think it" - 'Bruno Heinz Jaja', found deep within the player guidance for his masterpiece 'Punkt, Contrapunkt'.Comment
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Many thanks, & welcome, Loathecliffe. I vehemently agree with you. This BPO/ Keilberth recording is magnificent...& completely under-the-radar of Brucknerians on this forum, AFAIK.Originally posted by Loathecliff View PostMy first post in such distinguished company, and I'm feeling cheated; for circa 56 years!
I've spent a week once more delving into No.6 & yesterday spotted the Keilberth BPO Telefunken (TelDec) issue recorded in 1963.
I didn't know it existed. Why?! Released shortly before the awful Klumperer & it's magnificent imvho.
An HvK-free BPO are captured with superb (Decca tree?) engineering.
Even the last movement makes sense, & is a joy.
I'm just finished my fourth listen. I'm not even minding the perfunctory sounding string phrasing at 20 & 28:50 now.
Thank you Joseph Keilberth. IMHO your insight into a masterpiece was criminally neglected when you were on this crazy planet.
Apologies. This is a way OTT first post. Maybe it's my age
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Used: Very Good copy ordered (less than a fiver, including p&p). ETA March 4-8.Originally posted by Maclintick View PostComment
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Not sure if the box is still around but Jochum's Dresden Bruckner was joined with his excellent Beethoven and Brahms LSO & LPO recordings in an Icon box a few years back and when I bought it for the same price as the Bruckner set on its own.Comment
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Indeed, a great post! Thank you Jayne! The trouble I read at 08:56am today, so a trifle early for a drink!Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post
Great post Jayne, and not a drop has passed my lips!Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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I'm no Brucknerite (?) but I did buy a well rewiewed set of some of the symphonies last year which included the sixth: Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Mariss Jansons. Any views on that performance from any of you experts please?Comment
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Well I have listened to the Dausgaard and have to say it left me cold. I put it down to my being more in a Dvořák piano trio state of mind at the moment....Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
... but then I listened for the first time to the Celibidache and wow: instantly drawn in..."...the isle is full of noises,
Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."
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Originally posted by Nick Armstrong View Post
Ah well.....
As I said above though, persistence may pay with the gorgeous hi-res or SACD Dausgaard; a grower, given the chance.
It isn't that I don't recognise how remarkable Celi's balances, textures and colours are; a sound (and a personality, a presence) like that will always attract the cult following, quasi-religious devotees... its just that he leaves too much of Bruckner out.
Celi’s 6th presents itself as two slow movements, followed by two faster ones. Very much on the model of the 7th (though perhaps not Celi’s molto-moderato-or-adagio elongation of 7…) but feels like a betrayal of the 6th’s true shape or character.
Listening to to the 7th’s finale just now, as first I think “gosh this sounds good….” But as we pass into the developments, the third group is almost coming to a standstill, little is happening rhythmically and all I have to focus on is the extraordinary sound alone - including especially massive brasses, which simply feel indulgent to my ear, and something of a Brucknerian-stereo-era cliché. There is so much more to Bruckner than this.
6(i) (which once thrilled me for its sound) has little flow or rhythmic impetus; it scarcely changes in pace throughout and the rhythms have no schwung, losing symphonic grip and interest. Remarkable sound and textures, I suppose, which can be transfixing; but I feel it is Celi’s own obsession over sound and balance, which hogs the show here; you can almost sense his infinitesimal balance-calculations, bar-by-bar. The Brucknerian idiom (in which rhythm is vitally, almost obsessively important, in almost every movement) is subsumed under his sonic fixations.
In fact, his earlier SWR Bruckner isn't anything like as extreme; it has its moments, but is largely unexceptional. I still wonder how he found his way to this later extreme and very exclusive presentation.Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-02-21, 20:28.Comment
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